CAROLINE MARK | from Under the Radar Report

Are you intrigued by the share market but intimidated by the thought of investing? You're not alone. The latest episode of our podcast features Caroline Mark, co-founder and COO of the Under the Radar Report, who shares her personal journey from the arts to the world of finance.

Caroline worked for prestigious institutions like the Sydney Symphony Orchestra and the National Gallery in London. She had no financial expertise. However, her desire for financial security and a better understanding of her savings led her down a path that many find daunting: building an investment portfolio.

Caroline demystifies the process of starting a portfolio. She explains that it doesn't matter whether you have $500 or $5,000 – what's crucial is that you begin and remain consistent. Her approach is simple and relatable, especially for those who think you need a hefty sum to enter the stock market.

She shares her successes with energy investments like lithium and uranium stocks, highlighting the importance of being patient and the significant returns that can be achieved over time.

Moreover, Caroline discusses the emotional aspect of investing, the natural inclination to focus on losses, and the importance of not getting bogged down by them. Her candidness about the ups and downs of her investment journey provides a realistic view of what new investors can expect.

Caroline believes that it's a misconception that blue-chip stocks are stable and secure. Through her experience, she reveals that individual stocks, regardless of their size, can fluctuate significantly, which is a valuable lesson for investors at any level.

This episode is not just about stocks and investments; it's a story of personal growth, learning, and the courage to step into the unknown. Tune in to hear Caroline's full story that may just help you in your path to investing success. Don't miss this opportunity to learn from someone who's navigated the stock market's complexities with grace and success.

TRANSCRIPT FOLLOWS AFTER THIS BRIEF MESSAGE

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Chloe: Shares for beginners. Phil Muscatello and fin pods are authorised reps of money Sherpa. The information in this podcast is general in nature and doesn't take into account your personal situation.

Caroline: I'd always thought, oh, how do you start a portfolio? Well, actually, you just start with one stock, and then you just start building up. And whether you've got $500 or $1,000 or $5,000 or lots of money, it doesn't really matter as long as you start and you start being consistent and you can build up something over, uh, time.

Phil: G'day, and welcome back to Shares for Beginners. I'm Phil Muscatello. What's holding you back from investing in the share market? And once you've started, how can you maintain discipline? Joining me today to discuss investing while running a busy home is Caroline mark, co founder, uh, and coo of the under the radar report. G'day, Caroline. Thanks for coming around.

Caroline: Hi, Phil.

Phil: So, let's go back into the dim, dark past. You didn't come from a finance background. You had a background in the arts. What were you doing there?

Caroline: I worked for years for the Sydney Symphony Orchestra, which I loved, and at the National Gallery in London, and I studied art and history and politics. And really, that's my interest.

Phil: And that's nothing finance related, isn't it?

Caroline: Nothing finance.

Phil: Completely different.

Caroline: Completely different. I did, in my twenties, work for the securities Institute for about two years and that, and I did the grad dip in finance because I was editing subject notes. And that's really become invaluable while I've been under the radar report. But honestly, I'm much more interested in arts than I was ever in finance.

Phil: Do you find that it's common for people in the creative communities to be especially clueless about money, or is that a cliche?

Caroline: I, uh, think that's a great question. Do you know your initial reaction is always just, God, you know, they're not interested. But actually, I think that's a mistake, because everyone, no matter how critical, creative, or how free spirited you are, needs money to survive. And people are deeply concerned and really care about their future. And so whether you're an artist or creative person in any way, or not an artist at all, but just a person, I think everyone really wants to know that they're going to be secure now and secure in the future. And a big part of that is finance.

Phil: And I think in the arts industry as well, it's been a bit of a blueprint for the way people live now, because so much more people are side hustling.

Caroline: Yeah, that's right.

Phil: Setting up things and becoming small entrepreneurs themselves. Which is exactly like what people in the arts industry have, uh, been like.

Caroline: That's right, that's right. And people really do care about not just paying their current bills but thinking, oh, what am I going to be doing in five years or ten years? Or I need to buy a house or what does my retirement look like? And especially for lots of young people as well, to buy a house is such a big deal. You really need a huge deposit or renting. You need to be prepared for it. So money, sadly, is a crucial part of everyone's life.

Phil: And, um, that's what gave you the urge to get started in investing, isn't it?

Caroline: Look, I was. I had a fantastic shoe collection, Phil, but I was really sick of.

Phil: What is it with women in shoes?

Caroline: Look, I don't know, but it's just fun, isn't it? It's frivolous and fun. I was really sick of saving money and putting it into an account every month. But then you'd find that there's always a reason to dip into that savings and unless you actually have a plan and do something with it. I was finding I was saving the money, but then a month or two later there'd be a bill or there'd be a uh, oh, let's go on holiday. And you'd find that another pair of shoes. Another pair of shoes that, that actually you wouldn't have. Or you'd buy a subscription to the symphony for a year, you know, and you wouldn't have. And um, the savings sort of drifted so. And I was really sick of that. And I thought, right, let's get a grip. I work in finance. I talk to people who want to invest and I'm not doing it myself. This is ridiculous.

Phil: And your family had some sort of experience with shares, didn't they?

Caroline: Yeah, uh, not really though. I mean my dad had invested in shares but he never talked about it. He was a doctor and much more interested in history. And mum, her father had invested in shares and used that money to pay for the family holiday every year. So mum was. You invest, you buy BHP, they send you a lovely dividend check and you use that, uh, to buy Christmas presents or whatever it is to top up your spending money.

Phil: And it was a BHP only investment strategy.

Caroline: I think it was a BHP only or the equivalent or a bank. BhP in a bank strategy.

Phil: So what were the first steps that you take? And I suppose we should preface this, that you are from the under the radar report and we've had Richard and Peter on the podcast. So you're kind of surrounded by analysts, aren't you?

Caroline: Look, I am surrounded by analysts. We all sit in the same room together, but it's, they are, uh, talking stocks in great detail and their world is deep in financial analysis, in talking to management and going through accounts like their roles are very different from mine. And even though I'm sitting with them, until I started investing, I really wasn't that interested because I didn't take the time to get involved or start reading. And so that's what I did to start. I was terrified. I didn't know how to do it. I didn't know what to do first. And I'd always, I was speaking to our, uh, subscribers because I love talking to our subscribers, but a lot of them are highly experienced and come to us for stock ideas and know what they're doing and building a portfolio. But really we also get lots of beginners. And I thought, well, they're doing it, I need to do it too. So I started, I thought, okay, I'm going to pretend I am a subscriber, uh, and, or a member and follow the advice that our, uh, reports are giving. So I started and I looked at a report. We have these fantastic best stocks to buy and list at the back of our weekly report and the stocks that our analysts think are the best sort of risk reward return. So I started with a small cap and I started with a blue chip and I picked a stock and I put $1,000 into each stock. And the hitting buy was the most terrifying thing I think I've ever done. Why I was so hyped up about it, I'm not sure.

Phil: Can you name what those companies were?

Caroline: Yeah, they. Oh, gosh. I think, uh, the first stock I bought was Macquarie.

Phil: Macquarie bank?

Caroline: No, Macquarie Telecom. Telecom. And I can't remember. And I think I bought a bank. Actually, I can't even remember.

Phil: So what happened next? Did you keep on adding to it.

Caroline: Or did you just then I thought, okay, I'm going to buy once a month. I'm going to use the money that I was trying to save. I thought, okay, instead of trying to save it, I'm going to invest it. So I started investing. I'd saved up a bit of money and I had a thousand. I was putting a $1,000. So, uh, $2,000 a month into the stock market, into two shares. And so that's what I did. And I started Bill and every month I'd buy, you know, two shares, and that's how I started investing, and I slowly built up over time. And that was a bit of revelation that I'd always thought, oh, how do you start a portfolio? Well, actually, you just start with one stock, and then you just start building up. And whether, uh, you've got $500 or a $1,000 or $5,000, you know, lots of money, it doesn't really matter as long as you start and you start being consistent and you can build up something over time.

Phil: Did you have that misconception that a lot of people have is that you can't invest in the stock market unless you've got lots of dosh?

Caroline: I think that's right. I think that you think, oh, people have a hundred thousand dollar portfolio or $200,000, or I've got a million dollars in shares. And I really think that you sort of forget about that. It's possible just to start, and it's so easy to get an app on your phone and place it, buy a share. It's just so easy. And you always think it's this mystical thing where you need to use a stockbroker, uh, but you just don't anymore. And it's brilliant.

Phil: When you bought your first companies, did you do that thing where you were checking their price every day?

Caroline: More than every day. I became obsessed. And in fact, my cousin is a bit like me, and she sent me text messages. Uh, my share, it's green. Can you believe it? Oh, no, it's red. And what I hadn't realized was how much a stock, every stock moves around in a day or within a week, and the share price moves so, you know, substantially well, it feels like it's substantial when it really, it's not. And that taught me to chill out a bit. So by the second month, I thought, okay, I don't need to worry so much. It's going to be okay. You can just watch the stocks, learn that they move and then go again.

Phil: Did you have a plan on diversification, or were you just choosing different companies each month?

Caroline: Hook. That's a great question. I think that when I first started, I was just choosing stocks that interested me. But now I definitely focus more on themes, and as the months progressed, I started to focus more on themes and what I believed in. And when a company, I saw that it had a true opportunity in a market, that I then became more interested in it.

Phil: What were some of those themes that you were interested in?

Caroline: Look, I've done really well from new energy, because I really believe that the energy is going to transform within the next ten years. I thought it would be happening more quickly than it is. Like everybody, I thought electric cars. I thought our last car we bought would be the last normal engine. But actually it's probably not because this uptake of new energy has been much slower than I think people have anticipated. But I've made a lot of money from the lithium theme and uranium themes. Actually, I've made a lot of money. That's been a big lesson, too. The winners have actually taught me more of a lesson than the losers.

Phil: That's interesting. Why is that? Because you feel a sense of achievement and accomplishment, perhaps? Yeah.

Caroline: Um, I think, yes, you do feel a sense of accomplishment. Like, wow. But it shows you that it's worth taking a risk. Some of these stocks, it seems ridiculous, but Boss energy, I bought it. Twenty six cents and it's now $5.40. I mean, you just. You can't believe. You always hear stories that that happens, but actually, when you see it happening and it just shows you that I've also had some total duds, but that you make so much more money than you lose. And my portfolio, I've got a portfolio now of 20 stocks, which is probably too many or it becomes a bit unwieldy. But it does show you that with diversification, like, I really have had some that have totally bummed out one stock I've lost all my money on, but I've made so much more money. Like, I've essentially doubled my money in five years across my portfolio, which is. I'm really excited by.

Phil: And Boss Energy, that's a uranium company, isn't it?

Caroline: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that's a uranium. And I've done really well from another uranium company.

Phil: So is that just recently, because it's only been over the last six months to a year where the uranium prices really gone through the roof?

Caroline: It's really gone through the roof. But I think it just shows you what happens over time, that you buy something and you have to be patient.

Phil: Nothing happens for so long, especially in a stock like that.

Caroline: Yeah, but in other stocks, it happens more quickly. And other stocks, you lose your money quite quickly. But it has just shown me that patience pays and diversification pays. But I think that stocks that you are losing money on, you almost forget about your winners. And it's only coming here that I really checked how amazing some of the winners are. Uh, but you really. Your heart burns and hurts with your losses and it's hard. And I think fund managers. I was listening to an interview with one of the fund managers that Richard did, and they are like, yeah, we just cut our losses when you have them, because otherwise they take up all your time and you become obsessed with them. And I think that's the problem with an, for me, as an individual investor, you do become a bit obsessed with your losses and you focus on them and you forget that, actually. Okay, I, um, might have lost 30% when a stock goes down. Actually, that is insignificant compared with the wins on so many of my other stocks.

Phil: So what was it like, that experience when you first experienced a loss? Because that's that Danielle Kahneman thing, isn't it? About, um, your failure losses much more than your wins, isn't it?

Caroline: But then some of your original losses become your big winners. So now I'm more chilled out. I'm more chilled out about investing five years in than when I first started.

Phil: And I think it's worthwhile pointing out at this point in the conversation that this is not necessarily if you're saving for a home loan, for example, or saving for a deposit for a home loan. You know, this is something that's, you've got to think about it long term, don't you?

Caroline: Look, definitely. And I think that compound interest, it just shows you the value of reinvesting your dividends and not taking them out and what that does to your portfolio over time. And this is certainly, uh, I'm not giving any advice about a home loan or a saving for a deposit. I am purely talking about my own experience and I really need to make that perfectly clear.

Phil: Yeah, because you are a double down daredevil as well, aren't you? Well, you do have quite a risk appetite.

Caroline: Look, sometimes I do. And I think that investing has made me think about that because I thought I was highly conservative. But you realise actually, over time that I find small caps more interesting and I find the stories more interesting. I find them more exciting. I'm interested that in blue chips, the stock price moves around so much. You're always told that blue chips are very stable and secure, while actually as individual stocks, they can move a lot. And as much as you, uh, know, in percentage terms, as a, uh, small cap does.

Phil: Yeah, I mean, you can look at the banks over the last, what is it, ten years, I guess? Yeah, yeah. They've gone from, uh, quite high and then they went down, and then they were down for years.

Caroline: For years. Like I bought into nab and I thought, oh, my God, what have I done? I'm an idiot. See, there you go, focused on losses, but now it's come back and done well. But over time you think, uh, you know, when you're in the thick of the loss, you think, goodness me, what have I done? I didn't realize all stocks are a risk asset.

Phil: And with a company like nab, of course, if you're reinvesting the dividends, you're getting those dividends at a much lower price. And so you get, when the stock does finally recover in price, you're going to get a double whammy, aren't you?

Caroline: Exactly. Exactly. And so there are stocks that of course, when they are down, it's a lovely buying opportunity, which is great and is a way to build up your portfolio over time and have you doubled.

Phil: Down sometimes like that where a stock is down and you go, I'm going to buy more of this because I think it's still a good company.

Caroline: Nab was a great example. I did that. And I've also bought ANZ where when their price dipped, I've bought, I've built up my holding of those. I've done it a few times with small caps as well, and to some successfully, some not. But yeah, with a big blue chip. That is a quality company. It is often when it goes down, it is an opportunity to build up and get some more dividends.

Chloe: Super is one of the most important investments you'll ever make. But how do you know if you're in the best fund for your situation? Head to lifesherpa.com dot au to find out more. Life Sherpa, uh, Australia's most affordable online financial advice.

Phil: So you've never been interested in ETF's or managed funds or anything like that?

Caroline: I got burnt with a managed fund. It was the first thing I invested in in my twenties actually. So there are two things. I worked for a PR firm, um, before I moved into the arts in finance, and I bought some shares in. I wish I'd bought Silex at ah, Silex Systems when it was $0.11. That still haunts me. And then we started covering it and I could never buy it because it was, you know, $5 and I thought I had the opportunity to buy it at eleven and cents. Well, I still should have bought it at $5. Yeah.

Phil: So it's funny that memory of what the price of something was. Oh, it's so expensive now.

Caroline: I couldn't possibly buy it. I couldn't possibly buy it. I think that is true. But I did buy Sydney airports at its IPo stage and that I didn't ever sell it. And look, when they sold out, I made lots of money from. But then I also, in my twenties, invested in a managed fund, and it got hit by the GFC. And I just saw, you know, that money that I'd saved just evaporate, evaporate. And so I was pretty unimpressed and sold out. So I didn't want to go into a managed fund again and thought, well, why not do it myself? But ETF's definitely hold a place in a portfolio, and I think it's really important to build up a core portfolio and then to add small caps. We've started, uh, building wealth from scratch program, which we all totally love, and that is, I wish I'd had that when I first started investing, because it would give you the confidence to follow a path. Okay, this is, you've got $500, you've got $1,000. This is what you're going to do with it this month. And it's to set up a pattern of investing, and that's what I really like. And so part of that is to build up a core and to put into an ETF. So I certainly have an ETF that I top up as well. And that, look, it goes up and goes down. It's the market. Individual stocks move around a lot, and so it's good to have an ETF, which is the market. And so you're not stock specific risk. It's the whole market that you're buying into, and that's a great core for a portfolio.

Phil: And do you use that for a benchmark at all? Do you ever think about benchmarking?

Caroline: Uh, look, I do, I do. But it actually becomes irrelevant over. Maybe you do at the beginning more because you haven't allowed, in the first six months or the first year, you haven't allowed the stocks that you've bought to flourish. And so really, if you're comparing to an ETF, you know, you might have outperformed, you might be under, you might be over. But actually, if you keep following your strategy of building up a core portfolio, adding small caps in for growth over time will, in my experience, that growing, adding in small caps and adding in individual stocks, it has allowed much more growth than I would ever get if I just stuck to ETF's, which feel much safer, and you feel as if you're doing the right thing. But is it?

Phil: You're surrounded by analysts. I am, and they're looking at metrics all the time and valuing a company. Have you started to learn about that at all or have you, Phil, it.

Caroline: Holds no interest and it's not my skill set, so. And I'm too busy. I'm a busy working full time mother and my children are really important to me. I don't have the time to get a whole new skill set. And I see the experience that our, uh, analyst team have. We don't have young guns. We have highly experienced analysts who have learnt their craft over decades. I can't replace that in, you know, as a side hustle. And I trust them. And I mean, this is what I.

Phil: Find about, um, valuing companies is that sometimes you think, okay, I like this metric, I like this metric, I like that metric. And then someone points out another metric and says, yeah, but what about this? You know, which ruins your whole thesis.

Caroline: Well, it's like clever accounting beyond me. And, you know, Richard talks about PEs and actually is quite dismissive of them because he said it's so superficial. Yeah, it's great at some level, but you really need to get in to more depth before you're recommending a company.

Phil: Just because you understand a PE doesn't mean.

Caroline: It doesn't mean you know how to value a company. Value a company. And look, one of my friends recommended a stock to me and I thought, oh, stuff it. I'll put one of my thousand dollar, you know, and look, it whizzed up for ten minutes, it whizzed up 10% and I thought, who needs analysis? This is fabulous. And then a week later it crashed to, you know, down to 20% of what I'd put in. So I. Now look, we don't get every stock analyst team. Don't get every stock, right, but we get the majority. No one does, but we get enough, right, that, uh, as I say, highly experienced. Where you've talked to Peter Chilton, you've talked to Richard and we've got a team of analysts and they're just so experienced, not a fool. And I know that they're much better at it than me.

Phil: So let's talk about some of the winners and losers.

Caroline: Yeah, sure.

Phil: So you've mentioned boss energy before, but, um, Macquarie Telecom.

Caroline: Yeah, Macquarie Telecom.

Phil: Just tell us what it does.

Caroline: To start with, Macquarie Telecom do data centres and they're really invested heavily into data centers. They're two brothers that's listed, I don't know, 20 years ago and we recommended, it's one of the first stocks that under the radar report recommended and we recommended it around seven and $8 and look, it then dropped down to $6. The number of calls we got about it. This stock has done so badly.

Phil: It's a dog.

Caroline: It's a dog. And then rich and I kept on asking Richard, people are worried about this dog. He said, you've got to hold to tell them to hold their nerve. They're investing heavily and you've got to, you know, into data Spence data centers. It's really expensive technology, but they've got huge government contracts, they've got experienced management, they know what they're doing. They're, you know, backed by long term sales. It's going to be okay. And then it was re rated and I bought in at about $20 and by then I thought, oh, I've left, you know, the classic, I've left my run too late. But we still had a buy on it and I thought, okay. And it was in our best, uh, stocks to buy list. I thought, okay, trust the analyst. And then I sold half at about $28 and I'm very glad I kept the other half because that other half is now trading at $80. So that's been a long term hold.

Phil: And you're still holding it.

Caroline: And I'm still holding it.

Phil: Does it pay a dividend?

Caroline: No, it doesn't pay a dividend. And they're big reinvestors in their business. Like they're putting in billions at the moment into AI. And AI, which everyone loves, is apparently it's all about cooling systems, like the technology for data centers, the power that they need and the heat that that physically generates for a data centre is huge. And the liquid cooling that's required, like, it's quite fascinating.

Phil: It's interesting that whole AI thesis, isn't it? Because, uh, this is something I've been discovering is that people want to invest in companies that are exposed to AI, but often you can come at artificial intelligence from a completely different angle, can't you?

Caroline: Which is data centers. Who would have thought? Exactly. But they're investing heavily now for the future. When everyone comes on board with AI, you know, the anticipated need for data centres is huge.

Phil: The processing power that they're going to have to supply and, um, their customers are quite large government contractors and large corporates as well.

Caroline: That's right.

Phil: Do you see that as a kind of a moat for them?

Caroline: I think it's the size and the cost of getting to that sort of scale. To getting to that scale and that it's actually, we all know that, we all use Google and Amazon has won a huge data center. These are all run by big companies like it's huge dollars that you need to invest now.

Phil: And, um, tell us about some losers.

Caroline: Losers is one of the first stocks I bought, which was Panoramic. And I did sell out and make a nice profit.

Phil: What's panoramic?

Caroline: Panoramic is a very small nickel producer. And I sold out and then I bought back in because the price had dropped and I thought, great buying opportunity. But the nickel price collapsed and it had lots of debt and out of the blue it went under. And I think from the stop, we've had about three companies in twelve years that have gone under. And of course I was invested in one of them. And Peter Chilton, we said, peter, what happened? And he said, the management is excellent. I know these guys, I know them from a long time. They're excellent processors, they're brilliant managers. But the nickel price just fell out of bed and they couldn't survive it and so. And I got burnt with that one a. I, uh, made money out of it, but then I've only lost the money I put in and that is inconsequential. My thousand dollars to the amounts that I've put in and made many fold my profits. So it just, it's a lesson that even though really irritates the living daylights out of me, I have to put it in perspective of my whole portfolio, which is why you never just buy one stock. But it's a lesson about really looking at risk rating and knowing that if you're investing in a stock, we have a risk rating of five on it, well, then you might lose your money, you might make many times it, but there's risk attached. So if you're risk averse and you are, uh, buying one stock, that's really probably very stupid, put your money into an ETF. But when you're seriously about building out a portfolio, yeah, you do want some of these stocks, but perhaps you don't want a single mine.

Phil: Yeah. One of the companies that's been a loser for you has been Lend Lease which is strange because you've currently got it as a buy on your report.

Caroline: So I've lost 40% on Lend Lease

Phil: Are you still holding?

Caroline: And I'm still holding. And the question is, do I buy in now that there's a 40% drop? We do have a buy recommendation back on it again after the recent drop, but I'm holding out. I haven't decided. I'm stewing over it because really you only have limited funds to put in. And actually do I want just to make myself feel better and not have. Okay, so if I doubled down and put my more money into it, yes, my average price will look better. So then when the price goes up a few dollars, I'll feel better. So that's the emotional side. But actually, if I put my thousand dollars into another small cap stock, I've actually now got quite a strong ballast of an ETF and blue chip stocks. I actually want the excitement of small caps, and I think that's what I'm going to do. I haven't yet made up my mind, but that's what I'm leaning to.

Phil: There's just two things coming out of that. One is the idea of averaging down, and I don't think we've actually even covered that on the podcast. And that's where you've bought at a high price, the company drops in price, the share price drops down, and you buy some more, and then the average price becomes a lower price between the two, doesn't it?

Caroline: And I think that Lend Lease is a turnaround, and it's a really. It's hard. Everyone knows how hard it is to turn around a company. It could take years. So it's not like a bank where, you know, it's backed by the australian government. It's too big to fail. So when my bank shares did fall down, you know, when there's a dip, one of my core holdings, I do top up my banking shares and a, for dividends, but b, because that's going to be a core holding, and then I'm reinvesting my dividends. And that's a really important point, is to get compound growth, is to reinvest your dividends when you can. It, uh, makes a huge difference over the longer term for your portfolio as a whole. But with Lend Lease it's a turnaround stock. And I'm not convinced that that's where I personally want to put more of my money. And so it's an example of the analyst team. They're rating the stock. But also our advice is for stocks. It's not individual advice. So I'm looking at my portfolio and I'm thinking, is this how I want to manage my portfolio?

Phil: And the other point that you were kind of inferring is that if you sold out of that particular company and then put your money somewhere else, you might get your money back faster than if you hold it sometimes. Just a psychological ego thing, isn't it.

Caroline: That you think ego?

Phil: It's got to work for me because I chose it.

Caroline: As I cross my arms, I think, oh, I hate losing. And you become a bit obsessed with your losers. And I keep reminding myself, think like a fun manager. Don't become obsessed with your losers. If they're taking too much of your energy, it's like a naughty child. You know, you'd actually ignore a, uh, bad behavior and focus on the positive.

Phil: Yeah, because they're disrupting the class.

Caroline: They're disrupting the class. And that's the problem with badly performing stops. They disrupt how you're thinking.

Phil: So tell listeners how they can get in touch and find out more about under the radar.

Caroline: Look, it's pretty easy with that evil Google, under the Google, under the radar report and will definitely pop up. And it's great. You can take out a trial, but I really recommend, if you're starting out building wealth from scratch, if you're like me and you were really nervous and didn't know how to start, it sets out a program of how do you start? How do you place a share? What all that? Because it's quite technical when you first start, actually, you know, it's units or price or buy market, or it's a market. You're bidding and selling and you can place a bid or you can buy at market and what all that means. And we really simplify it. And I love that it's a program of consistent investing because I think in hindsight, that's what I stumbled upon as a stroke of genius, was that actually you just have to be consistent when you start and then you don't need to be as consistent. And you can let things grow over time, but when you first start, you really need to build out your core portfolio. And that's what this is about, is to start investing every month. And I think it's brilliant. And the other thing that I love is that it's sector focused because it can be really overwhelming about what stock to buy. I think that's a big prohibitor. I didn't know how to start investing or what to buy. I sort of had wanted to, but I didn't know how to do it. And so we've broken it down, um, by sectors. And then what are our top stocks in the sector to make it easy to choose and help you decide which, which stocks to buy?

Phil: Caroline, mark, thanks very much for joining me today.

Caroline: My pleasure. Bye.

Chloe: Thanks for listening to shares for beginners. You can find more@sharesforbeginners.com if you enjoy listening, please take a moment to rate or review in your podcast player or tell a friend who might want to learn more about investing for their future.

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