The Coffee Can Investor: Why Patience Still Wins

In this episode, I’m joined by Neeraj Khemlani former 60 Minutes producer, journalist, head of CBS News and author of The Coffee Can Investor. It's the story of Matt Ankrum , a midwestern portfolio manager whose entire career has been shaped by deep research, emotional discipline, and a willingness to think in decades.

Neeraj follows Matt’s journey to build a portfolio designed to be left untouched for 20 or 30 years. Matt’s approach is grounded in simplicity: find exceptional businesses, understand them deeply, and then resist every urge to tinker.

The Coffee Can Investor shares Ankrum’s process for identifying companies that can stand the test of time, as well as his stock picks. It explores the principles of long-term investing, emphasizing the power of compounding and why it pays to be patient. This book details the qualitative and quantitative aspects of 100-baggers, revealing that a surprising share are business-to-business companies, not just the business-to-consumer companies that typically grab headlines. Khemlani also recounts his own decision to make a coffee can of investments for his kids.

Engaging and fast-paced, this book is for anyone who wants to invest in enduring companies for the long term.

TRANSCRIPT FOLLOWS AFTER THIS BRIEF MESSAGE

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

How did a former journalist, 60 Minutes producer, president, uh, and co head of CBS News and stations find himself slowing down, thinking in decades instead of deadlines and asking himself the question, what am I building for my own children? Today we're joined by Neeraj Kemlani, author of the Coffee Can Investor. This book is the story of Matt Ankrum, a little known investment figure from the Midwest who has spent decades learning about the companies that he would put in a symbolic coffee can for decades to compound for his children and their future. This conversation is about what happens when a journalist falls in love with patient investing and leaves the deadlines behind. Hello, Neeraj.

Hi Phil. Honored to be here today.

Uh, honored to have you on as well. Thank you very much for coming and talking about this book. So tell us about how you first came across Matt and his story.

Well, I've actually known Matt for more than a quarter century now. I met him in the late 90s in Denver when he was a young analyst at Janus. And I just thought he was wicked smart and incredibly kind. And over the years he was a deep background source for me on all things Wall street and corporate America. And so I've been doing follow up sessions with him for over 25 years. And a couple of years ago in one of our conversations, he just told me some great stories about what he was doing, doing as opposed to answering my questions. And the first story that he told me was about Coffee can investing. And Coffee Can Investing, if I may, goes back to someone named Robert Kirby who was working at the Capital Group in Los Angeles managing other people's money. And Robert was asked to be on the Brady Commission by Ronald REAGAN after the 86 stock market crash. And so, very conservative guy, very connected. And the story begins when he approaches a Los Angeles heiress one day and asks, can I manage your money? And she says, sure, I, uh, like you, yes, you can do that, but please do me a favor. I don't know a lot about this deal with my husband on day to day matters. He's a lawyer, so Kirby says, sure. And over the years he'd call up the husband and say, buy this stock. And over the years the husband would dutifully buy the stock for his wife, but without telling anybody he would buy the same stock for himself with his own money. And over the years, when Kirby would call and say, sell that stock, he would dutifully sell it in his wife's account, but he would keep it in his. In fact, he never wanted to sell anything he bought. And he would keep all his stock certificates in a coffee can. Decade or so goes by, the husband passes the can, is discovered by the wife. She doesn't know what it's all about, Gives the coffee can to Robert Kirby. And Kirby looks at it and in a hot minute realizes what's going on. That the husband had been piggybacking off of all of the buy recommendations, but never selling. And it turns out that his portfolio did better than hers. He would invest $5,000 in every single buy recommendation. Some trended down to 3,000, a bunch went up to 100,000, and one went up to $800,000. So Matt is reading this in the Journal of Portfolio Management. And, uh, at the end of the article, Kirby writes, I hope someday someone somewhere will repeat this experiment. And so Matt decides he's going to build a coffee can for his three daughters. But all of the stock recommendations were meant to be short and midterm. He was amazed by the ones that went from 5,000 to 100,000,

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5,000 to 800,000. And he began to study stocks that multiply 100 times in value. We call them hundred baggers. And so he then went on to start to accumulate research on every stock that multiplied 100 times since 1980 and what they had in common, both quantitatively and qualitatively. And so he decided to use the clues from his research to identify future stocks that could be hundred baggers and put them into a coffee can for his three girls. And when he told me that, I knew there was a book here.

Okay, well, let's get back to you and your career as well. So you're not from a finance background, you're a journalist, you've worked in 60 minutes and in management. Just give us a little bit more of a background about yourself as well before writing this book.

Sure. You know, I started out in the glory years of network news. I started as a young production assistant, Then growing from there for the late Peter Jennings when he was the anchor of ABC News. And from there I went over to go work for Dan Rather when he was the anchor of CBS News. And they had started a spinoff show for 60 Minutes called 60 Minutes 2. And I started producing for him on those programs over the years. These were some of the greatest Jobs in television journalism. I like to say it was kind of like sitting at King Arthur's Roundtable where you could chase anyone, uh, chase any bad guy, go anywhere in the world, tell any story back when the networks were flush with profits to fund good journalism. And so I grew up in that world with those kinds of producers and correspondents. As I got older, and particularly as digital started to emerge, I took a Chance and left 60 minutes to go work for Yahoo. Probably the only person who ever left 60 Minutes to join a company with an exclamation point in their name. And it was incredible experience with really, really smart people building all kinds of new things on how to tell stories. And this was when, back when Yahoo was giant and growing and we did all kinds of things from reinventing how you do a presidential debate to music concerts to Yahoo Finance. And so I was very much a part of those years at, ah, Yahoo. And then I went off to Hearst, which is a private media company and you know, known for its newspapers and magazines. I came in initially to sort of bring a, uh, digital sensibility to all of these different divisions. And one of the things that I noticed, which brings me back to Matt, was, you know, as I became more senior at Hearst, I noticed that the CEO was doing more and more capital allocation towards B2B media companies as opposed to B2C media companies. So. Meaning, you know, less to the newspapers and magazines and ultimately television and more into data and information types of companies. And I think two years ago, Hearst now derives more than half of its profits from those B2B media companies. And the reason I share that with you is when Matt was studying what those hundred baggers had in common, one of the headlines that really hit home with me was that 68% of them were B2B businesses. So not the Nikes and apples and all the rest, but the kinds of companies that sell essential products to other businesses that they don't need in order to run their businesses. And so what I saw my CEO at Hearst doing on the private media side, Matt was identifying in the public equity markets.

Yeah, I, uh, noted that in the book that you also mentioned that you did look back on your experience in management, especially in terms of acquisitions. I think you give the example of a company that was set up to collect royalties for, for copyright

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holders. And I think you had a moment that you realized that you had experienced acquisition on a firsthand basis, didn't you?

Yeah, you know, the other commonality is, you know, a lot of these hundred bagger stocks that we mentioned in the coffee can investor. They grew through acquisition and very much like the Hearst model. And so at one point in my tenure at Hearst, I was overseeing the entertainment division and it was largely our cable channel partnerships with Disney Companies like ESPN or A& E or the History Channel. And we weren't going to necessarily acquire new cable networks. The writing was on the wall. It was in the early days. And I ended up looking at a company called Cobalt that essentially collects royalties for songwriters. In the old days, if a song played on a radio in Japan, that those monies were then sent to the Japan office, then the head Asia office, and by the time it worked its way back to the U.S. no one could sort of track all of that. But now, not only in terms of things like radio, but with streaming that are resurrecting the power of all of these catalogs, to be able to collect those fractions of pennies for every time a song is streamed and digitally send it back and then get artists paid accurately and quickly, I thought was not only a good mission, but a good business. And so even I started to think about the B2B universe before I left Hearst.

Take control of your investments. Sharesight has you covered. It's Investopedia's number one tracking tool for DIY investors. Get four months free on an annual premium plan@sharesite.com sharesforbeginners so Matt and I'll just point out at this juncture that we're going to be having Matt on the podcast as well to talk about investing and how he went through as well. But he is a long way from a flashy Wall street type, isn't he? Tell us a bit about him and what's impressed because you've mentioned that he was a kind person but a very humble person that comes across in the book.

He's a boy scout and I love that he's sitting there in his home office in Kansas City. He grew up in Beloit, Wisconsin and very humble beginnings and a lot of life less along the way for him. He's not flashy. He doesn't buy himself a new car. He takes the hand me downs. He only spends on, um, what he thinks is necessary. His daughters, Morgan, Peyton and Pierce would like to joke with me about their cars. And they're dents on the side of the cars, there's holes in the front passenger seat, their giant magnetic band aids on the side of the cars to cover the dents. And Matt has always been the type of person that likes to spend money on necessities and not Extravagances. And that made me think about, you know, titans like Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger sitting there in Omaha, far away from Wall Street. And, you know, he's the kind of guy who likes to read arcane financial literature, like lots of it, not only in the companies he invests in, but in general. And his thirst for self education is enormous in life. He was working on, you know, an education company, and he very much believes in the democratization of education. He values his time with his family enormously. He's very much a. A girl dad taking three girls to Barbie and Wicked and exchanging gossip about the royal family.

Disneyland as well, that comes across.

Disneyland was one of their favorite places to go. And so he's a family man. You know, he's not riding in a Land Rover going up to his home in the Hamptons. And so that humility was something that was really attractive to me. He says, you know, he's very unsexy. You know, very much like the companies that he's very interested in. Those two are very unsexy. And so there's very little flash in the Ancrum household. And I think that's part of the reason why his

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daughters have grown up so beautifully as people.

I think it really comes across in the book how. How much time, as you say, that he puts into researching these companies. And it's a lesson for beginners as well, because so many times people hear about a company, they hear a story, and within 10 minutes they've pressed the buy button. Whereas the amount of time that goes into actually valuing a company and also the time meeting with management and talking to management to make sure that they're up to par as well. How did you approach this? And, um, trying to simplify some of these investing concepts.

I think the part of the mission for me in all of this is to contribute to financial literacy. The average stock hold time, the last time I saw was about five and a half months and declining. And the average retirement for most, uh, Americans is between $300,000 and $400,000. And I wanted to write a book with the rise of populism and the rise of, uh, retail investing that demystified the process. The process is hard, but to demystify it, to explain all kinds of things so that if you never got an MBA and you've never worked at a Wall street trading firm, that you could understand this. And more importantly than the facts and the figures and the companies. Howard Marks wrote a great blurb in this book and is very much what we were trying to do was we wanted to share with people how to think as opposed to what to think. And so it's a mental process. You're investing in companies, you're not buying stocks. You spend more time researching it before you buy it and have a higher bar to sell it. And once you do buy it, keep learning about it. Keep reading the financial reports each quarter, see if the original thesis has changed or not. And so they become, uh, valued members of your financial family. And you know more about them and their leadership than most people who are, you know, just trading a momentum.

And the coffee can concept means compounding is an important part of it as well. Tell us about what you learned about compounding through this process.

It's amazing how hard it is to visualize something that's exponential. You know, we're so used to looking at graphs and tables and seeing things go from left to right and up and down. But to imagine something that's exponential, I thought I wanted to spend a little time on it inside the book. And there are a couple of different analogies on all of this. You know, a company that's going to grow 100 times, most of the growth is. Is in the back end of the curve. The first 10 years, it's hard to distinguish between, uh, one of these stocks and the S and P. But then it starts to take off, and you see the power of compounding because you're doubling every five years. And if you think about it, most of Warren Buffett's net worth was accumulated after the age of 65 and his holdings compounded forever. My favorite example, of course, is the chessboard and, you know, invented in India. And the king loves the game and invites the inventor of the chessboard to sit down and play with him. And he asks the inventor what he wants. And the inventor says, okay, I want a grain of rice on the first of 64 squares on a chessboard, and every single square thereafter double the grain of rice. So you go from 1 to 2 to 4 to 8 to 16 and so on. Well, in the book, I used a, uh, dollar value for a grain of rice. And it takes a bunch of squares for you to get to a single dollar's worth of rice. But then it starts doubling and compounding and compounding. And as you get closer to the end of the chessboard, you suddenly have, in rice, in dollars, more money than Warren Buffett

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and Elon Musk's net worth combined. And by the time you get to the 64th square, you suddenly have more money than the entire US GDP. You can't imagine that exponential type of compounding. And I think that's a really important lesson I wanted to share with my kids so they could understand that kind of power.

And it's also looking into the companies and the financials and the fact that they're increasing revenue and profits over a long period of time that you actually, if you look back through the reports, you can actually see it's a continued upward trend. And these are the kind of companies that you looking for to begin with, aren't you?

Yeah. Matt doesn't feel he has to catch them right away. He's happy just studying and tracking and following before he pulls the trigger. And some of the things that he discovered, and I'm sure he will go into great detail with you, is these companies were growing revenue 20% year over year. Now, okay, one year sounds good, two years sounds good. But the numbers keep getting bigger. And 20% growth 20 years in is just insane amounts of growth. And while they're growing, they're also improving their profit margins by X basis points every year. So these are companies that really spit out cash. And that cash is then used to, you know, their R and D to acquire other companies. And so you start to really understand the inner workings of a company that is enduring. And you start to think about these things other than, do I like their products or not, you know, which ones are the craze of the day. And so you start to get lots of respect for some of these companies. You know, I talk about one of the hundred baggers is a company called Fastenal. And, you know, it's a company that creates nuts and bolts. I mean, talk about unsexy, right? No one's talking about it at cocktail parties. It's not Nvidia.

It's definitely not a Mag 7 stock.

It's not a Mag 7 stock. And this company put vending machines of all kinds of fasteners on, um, construction sites. Because if you're a construction site and you've got millions of dollars of people and Caterpillar equipment ready to go, and you can't do your job because you don't have a nut or a bolt, that's a problem. And so they stay close to their customers, know what they need. And it's really not the nut or the bolt. It's the service of knowing what they did on site. You know, in addition to stories and everything else, that company compounded 100 times and is still growing, but no one really talks about it.

And what seems to be Very much in common with these companies is that they all have a flywheel that increases revenue. And a lot of work is, uh, is put in by the companies to ensure that this flywheel keeps spinning, keeps on generating cash, keeps on generating revenue, and will grow into the future. Tell us about that.

Yeah, I think, uh, if you take all the pieces, you know, you're growing the revenue, you have an essential product, you have a management team that is eager to reinvest and grow margins while doing that. And then M also exists in an industry with a large tam. You know, so another company that we write about is Rentokill. You know, they're in the pest control business. And they. First of all, you know, Matt is long on pests and rats. I think they're going to be 7 billion rats by the year 2050, because we're all moving to C cities. And you know what? Unfortunately, global warming also helps accelerate the growth of these pests. For a company like that to grow, they are acquiring mom and pop pest control businesses. So not only is it a large TAM and a growth industry, but they can continue to acquire year after year, more and more mom and pop businesses. And as they acquire them and contiguously in the same neighborhoods,

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they can then improve profit margins to 20%. And so they have it down to a science. And then when they go into these buildings on the corporate accounts to deal with pest control, what else do you need? Oh, you know, you need fire extinguishers to be checked. You need cleaning services. So land and expand is happening all the time. And again, quietly, methodically growing and putting the numbers up on the wall.

One of the techniques that you use in the book? Well, there's a couple of techniques that I want to refer to. First of all, each company is broken down to three numbers. And you go through and explain what those numbers mean in terms of Matt's investment thinking. But then at the end of each chapter about the company, you write about the conversations where he is explaining the companies to his family as well. These numbers really give you an insight into each of these companies, but they're different for each company as well. How did you find trying to simplify these kind of concepts?

Yeah, and again, this goes to making this accessible for the retail investor. You can go deeper into the financial reports and the great quotes, but there's usually three numbers that gets Matt excited about each company. And so using that as a device throughout it, I think helps simplify the storytelling. In the same spirit, Matt didn't tell his daughters that he was doing for this for them until the very end of the book. But he would talk about these companies with them. He would use them as educational opportunities at the dinner table. And the girls questions are so revealing and what they take away from each of the companies and they are a surrogate for the reader. And I will say to you both, Matt and I very much wanted to do this book for our kids. You know, the analogy I make is, you know, I've played very bad golf for a long time, and, you know, when I take a lesson in my 50s, I've got to unlearn a lot of bad habits and swings and all the rest. And I always thought, I wish I had started taking some lessons in my, you know, teens, in my 20s. And so this book very much is for people who are starting out, learning to invest, have long time horizons. You know, it takes 30 years usually to get a hundred bagger, but to give them these kinds of lessons, this kind of exposure, you know. In fact, Matt, one day my son came home and said, who is this guy you're talking to every week? Like, tell me about him. And I told him, and he said, well, can I reach out to him? I'm thinking about going in finance and can I do an internship? And so Matt, bless his heart, spent Saturday mornings talking to my son Ian about financing. You know, if I can be a proud dad for just a second. You know, he just landed one of the vaunted internships on Wall street for his junior year. So I don't know if he'll go into it forever, but he satiated his curiosity and started to develop passion around that. And for that, I'll be forever grateful.

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What is one of the simplest concepts that you think beginners should learn out of the book?

I think the idea that you need to have multiple streams of income, right? You have your job, uh, but you need to have some investment income growing with it along the way and starting extremely early. I think that was important to both of us as dads, for our children. I think that. And I want to make sure the readers understand this. We're not saying this is the only investment method. If anything, what we're talking about is follow the advice of your financial professionals and all the rest. Most of my own personal investments are in index funds. This is meant to be a sidecar of concentration around companies that have

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bright futures for decades. And the hard part, the hard part, I know you asked about the simple part, but the hard part is following those companies over time and holding onto them over time. As you said earlier, people's hands, their fingers get itchy. And so I think that's a key piece of this. So it's a psychological component to investing as well.

That is very much, isn't it? The psychological side of things as well. And that comes across in the book that, okay, these stock certificates, as if anyone remembers what a stock certificate is, they kept in a coffee can. But Matt is continually revisiting and checking in on these companies on a constant basis to make sure that if anything changes, that his investing thesis will change as well. And that's really important to remember.

Yeah, One of the things he notes in the book is how many of the previous hundred baggers went through giant corrections. 50, 60, 70, 80% drops. He himself, as a young analyst owned Fastenal and discovered that they were going to miss their numbers for a quarter. And it was one of the largest holdings of the company he was working for. And they sold. And he was right. But if he had held onto it, I think it grew like 19 fold after that. And so being able to sort of hold on to these things over time are critical. Again, going back to the patients and concentration.

You've touched on concentration and the opposite of it, which is die worsification. Tell us about those concepts.

Diversification is a term that Charlie Munger once used, the source of all great investing wisdom and particularly in terms of the storytelling of it and sharing of these ideas. But he felt that if you had someone who was going to put your money across 100, a thousand stocks, how intimate are they with each of those holdings? And that it was really meant as a way to losing a lot of money on a single company. So there's a risk component to it. He was very much into. There are very few big ideas out there and when you see them, betting big on them and you know, I think that in this book I will say that, you know, the old Mark Twain line of history rhymes, you know, uh, you know, I talked about Fastenal. Matt saw the same kind of, you know, behavior and product and business model in a company called Diploma in London. And they make seals and gaskets and wires and again, stuff you're never going to talk about at a cocktail party. But he saw that repeating itself. I talked about the pest control company and their delivery Service and acquiring and going into these companies expanding services. Well, that was Cintas in another era, which was also a hundred bagger. And Cintas cleaned people's uniforms and delivered them in their workplace. And so I think the idea, idea of, hey, I really believe in a route delivery base, you know, type of a company that can acquire market share easily is the kind of, you know, once in a lifetime type of ideas for Matt, where he wants to be concentrated in a portion of his portfolio. And Charlie Munger and Nicholas Sleep and Jeff Bezos are the people who primarily focus on their own company's growth. So if you can see that you have a disruptive model that's going to take share for decades on decades, then having a, uh, concentrated bet makes sense. And again for the listeners, for a small portion of your overall investment assets

at the end of the book, you have the moment when Matt is talking to, well, Matt and his wife are talking to his daughters about what is happening and what he's doing. Tell us about how he approached it. Because they took a lot of care to approach it the way they were going to tell the family.

If you ask Matt and his wife Marie, they were extremely nervous about having this conversation. I mean here they are,

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family vacation once a year, giant band aids on, um, the sides of the cars, and then suddenly their father and mother are investing $5 million into stocks in a coffee can that if everything hits, everything hits 100 times. Could be someday worth half a billion. Billion dollars. What does that do to a, uh, kid's mind? Will to work, curiosity, ability to strive and chase their own careers. They were terribly nervous about this and they did it over Thanksgiving. And their reactions. No matter how much a parent overthinks something, you never can predict the reaction of your child. You know, one, one of the girls was just shocked at the amount of money being invested. Five million dollars. They can't even imagine half a billion someday, right? Five million will blow their minds. And so they had never really gotten exposure to their parents net worth before. And what's interesting about that is that they didn't start talking about, well, hey, can we go back to Disney World again? Or dad, can I get a new car? Mom, can I get a new wardrobe? That never happened once in the conversation. What did happen was the kids talked about which stocks were their favorites, which they had been hearing about at the dinner table the whole time. Most importantly, they wanted to know how they could help other people. And what I realized at the end of all of this is here you are on this noble financial experiment to make sure, uh, to ensure the well being of your family decades down the road. They had never once thought about the word inheritance. They didn't even know really what that was. They just assumed that they were going to make their own way and all they ever wanted was just our love along the way. And so we realized, regardless of whatever happens with the coffee can, uh, that we had won the jackpot with our kids. And to me that's what it's all about. It's the sharing of learnings with them, being with them and encouraging them to think for themselves.

It really speaks to parenting. And that's what the book's about. It's a parenting book as well as an investment book. That's what really comes across.

Um, it's funny you say that because I liken, I think the Coffee can investor and I say this with respect, is a sort of mix between Rich Dad, Poor dad and Jim Collins's Good to Great, which has all the great research in it. Uh, so that was very much what ended up happening by the end of the book. It was a combination of those two.

How was your approach with your own family in terms of writing the book and spoken. You've spoken about your son, that's Ian, isn't it? And his journey into finance. How about dealing with this and then starting to think about your own family situation and building for the future?

Yeah. You know, it's funny, uh, I was writing this book. When I started writing this book, it was senior year in high school and so I had a chance to be around them for all those critical things like prom and football championships and applying to college. You know, it's this interesting moment in which kids are trying to sum up who they are and project who they want to be. And so it is into that crucible. I went in writing this book to sort of to help them think about themselves and the lifestyles they want and what they want to accomplish in this world. And they very much. You know, I make the joke that if Matt was making them putting $5 million in, uh, you know, as a, as an author, my wife and I, who's also an author, were putting together an espresso shot for our kids and they very much had the same reactions like, wait, what? And it was very important for me to explain to them how long this could be, how it couldn't happen at all. But I want to invite you in to the process to monitor this over time to help be a steward that you have a hand on the wheel

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here and it was an invitation which they both gladly accepted. My daughter Samantha is a pre med student and very fascinated in the course of the book around one of the former hundred baggers, biotechnic and how they create all of the reagents and antigens and proteins that a PhD scientist uses in the lab. And she got fascinated by this and we used it to have conversations around, well, what is AI going to do to drug development? What's going to happen to clinical trials? So the book became very much a, uh, conversation at our dinner table as well. But then again, they're used to it being twin kids of two reporters. So they're used to us talking about our creative projects on a nightly basis. So they very much became organically, and not by design a part of the book too.

Well, as I've mentioned, we're going to have Matt on the podcast as well and we're going to go far deeper into the actual investing approach and the companies that we're going to speak about. But Neeraj, tell us about the book and there's a website associated with it as well where listeners and viewers can go to find out more and where they can get it all. Book good bookstores, I guess.

Yeah, I think the easiest place is to just search coffee can investor on Amazon or Apple Books or Barnes and Noble, whatever is your preference. You know, it's available in print, in audio and electronic versions and very easy to find. And I will say, Phil, you know, it is the beginning of a journey for myself here with this book. And I am working on a second book now in which I'm following another great investor making a big bet with decades of experience and victories. But you know, this investor is not in the stock market, but in real estate. And I would love that when you spin off your show into real estate as well, that we have a chance to reconnect on that book down the line.

Neeraj Kamlani, thank you so much for joining me today.

Thank you, Phil.

Thanks for listening to Shares for Beginners. You can find more@sharesforbeginners.com if you enjoy listening. Please take a moment to rate or review in your podcast player or tell a friend who might want to learn more about investing for their future.

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