ANA KRESINA | Kids Ain't Cheap

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The fiscal facts of family financials - securing the future of the ones you love. Ana Kresina  Author of Kids Ain’t Cheap
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Parenthood is an adventure filled with joy, challenges, and a significant amount of financial planning. In the latest episode I'm joined by Ana Kresina, a financial educator and co-host of the Get Rich Slow Club podcast, to explore the intricacies of managing money as a parent.

Ana's journey to financial independence and her experience as a parent have culminated in her book, Kids Ain't Cheap, a comprehensive guide for parents navigating the costs of raising a child. The episode delves into topics ranging from the price of early childhood education to the gender super gap, and the importance of planning for your child's future.

Kids Ain't Cheap - How to plan financially for parenthood and your family's future - Ana Kresina

We discuss the strategies parents can employ to invest smartly for their children's future and highlight the importance of making informed decisions that will benefit your family in the long run.

We also touched on ethical investing and how the choices we make can affect not only our financial health but also the world around us. As Anna points out, "You want to make money out of profits, but then the profit motive might not be the best thing for you on a personal level."

The book is a treasure trove of information for current and future parents, providing actionable advice on how to plan financially for parenthood and your family's future.

ANA KRESINA is the parent of two small children and a financial educator who works in the financial technology sector as Head of Product and Community at Pearler. She is the co-host of one of Australia’s leading podcasts, Get Rich Slow Club, has been featured in the Australian Finance Review, has appeared on ABC and AusBiz TV and is a regular guest on the Girls That Invest podcast. Originally from Canada, Ana now calls Australia home.


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Chloe: Shares for beginners Phil Muscatello and Finpods are authorized reps of money Sherpa. The information in this podcast is general in nature and doesn't take into account your personal situation.

Ana: The interesting part is talking to parents about how they think about this money, and that's the part that I really love chatting about. For some people, they want to give them a lump sum of money when they hit a certain age. For other parents, it's about wanting to support them when they're ready to buy a property. Other parents, they don't want to tell them at all until the kids prove themselves that they're financially smart enough to handle a bit of money. Whereas others are like, I want to invest in their education because that's more important than giving them a leg, um, up in terms of assets. So it is interesting hearing these different ways and all of the different ways that you can invest really depends on your financial situation and how you want to protect yourself, protect your kids, and the tax implications of that.

Phil: G'day and welcome back to shares for beginners. I'm, um, Phil Muscatello, and in a past life, I was co host of ETFs for beginners with Ana Kresina G'day, Ana

Ana: Hi, Phil. Thanks for having me.

Phil: And I think I'm the only person in the world that calls you Ana Yes, much prefer the sound of it.

Ana: Oh, uh, I'm open to any version of how people pronounce my name.

Phil: Ana Kresina hails from Canada. She's a financial educator who works in the financial technology sector. Her love of personal finance, parenthood and technology is apparent in both the content she creates, documenting her journey to financial independence. And as head of product and community at Pearler she's the co host of the Get Rich Slow Club podcast, which has been making quite the splash. How's that been going? What's that experience been like with a new podcast co host?

Ana: Yeah, no, it's been fantastic. Been working with Tash Etschmann who runs Tash invests, and it's been a lot of fun just kind of documenting how to invest if you're a total beginner and you don't know what to do. Our first ten episodes go over that, and then we go into detail afterwards. So it's been a lot of fun.

Phil: Yeah, no, it's going very well.

You've published a children's book called Kids Aid Cheap

Now, you've, um, published a book called Kids Ain't Cheap. What was that like? I mean, how does it feel just personally becoming an author? It's your first time, isn't it?

Ana: Yeah, it is my first time. I think when you're younger, you often have these ideas of things you'd like to do in your life. And writing a book is on the list for a lot of people. But I always thought if I was going to write a book, it would be some kind of novel fiction. Never did I think that I'd be writing a, um, finance book for parents in terms of parenthood. So I never thought that that was going to be the case, but it came to be because someone kind of planted the seed in my head and it evolved into, I guess, being like, yeah, this is something I'm going to do. And I sat down and wrote this book quite quickly in a few months. And I'm not going to lie, writing a book is a lot of work, and it's extremely difficult when you've got two young ins, one who doesn't sleep and you're sleep deprived. But I was on a mission to get it done, so now I'm glad that it's out in the world and hopefully I can help a lot of to be and current parents.

Phil: So I guess there's two anna's, there's the pre writing the book Ana uh, and the post writing the book.

Anna says she started thinking about parenthood before she met her partner

Ana when you first started your family, how organized were you with financial planning before starting?

Ana: I love this question because it's very different for everyone. For myself, I started thinking about parenthood before I met my partner and realized that I wanted to potentially be a parent. And in doing so, as a single person, there's a lot of other financial costs that you have to take into consideration. I thought if I wasn't going to have a partner, I'd probably have to do IVF. I'd probably have to have some kind of financial security if I was planning on taking parental leave, because I don't really have support here in Australia. So there was a lot of consideration that came into play for me. So I started planning and saving money and investing for my future. Um, quite early, it just so happened I met my partner who was on board to have a family with me, and that planning became a little bit easier. But for a lot of people who don't know what to expect when it comes to parenthood, there's a lot of financial aspects that they need to consider, such as fertility costs, the actual cost of raising a child, early childhood education, and care costs. Childcare can be really expensive here in Australia, and then that continues to go on as you figure out whether you want to put your child into a, uh, public schooling or a private school, and kids do get more expensive as they get older, which is something that I was very surprised to find out, especially since these early childhood education years are so expensive. Childcare blows my budget.

Phil: I'm really surprised to hear that you were planning to be a single parent. Did you find that's a common thing, talking about this kind of subject amongst your peer group?

Ana: I think it's absolutely taboo to talk about single parenthood or trying to do it by yourself. It's something.

Phil: Yeah, just do it. Even do it deliberately like that. I can understand why you want to do that, but it's a taboo. Is it?

Ana: Uh, I think so. Because there's still that unfortunate bias that parents or, uh, that kids should have two parents, or the idea that doing it by yourself is a little bit stigmatized and harder financially. So I think there is a bit of that stigma there. I think for myself, I've always been slightly non conventional. I've done crazy things in my life, from playing roller derby and hitchhiking through the balkans and just these things. I kind of have always walked to the beat of my own drum. And so if I was going to have a family, I wasn't planning on waiting for someone to potentially do it with. If I have a goal or a lifestyle that I want, I'm going to create that myself. And in a lot of things, when it comes to finances, that comes down to, literally finances, like to be able to create the lifestyle that you want. So that was just something that I thought about ahead of time. But, yeah, I wouldn't say that it's, like, frowned upon. It's just maybe less conventional, and therefore there is a bit of biases or stigma that comes into play.

Many people are unprepared for the financial impact of having a baby

Phil: So you are highly organized, but many people just blunder blithely into this situation, don't they? And they're not really thinking about making these plans. What would you suggest to the kind of conversations for people to have when they suddenly find themselves thrust into this situation? They're being totally unprepared, unlike yourself.

Ana: You're totally right. Most people are less prepared in that situation and not thinking ahead of time. I think that when that happens, there's that initial either shock or excitement that you're expecting, and a lot of it revolves around pregnancy or what life is going to be like once the baby enters the world, and it's less about the financial impact of it. So some of the conversations that I think are really important to have if you're a single parent, especially, is having an understanding of your budget, running the numbers, especially if you're planning on taking parental leave and having a bit of a projected idea around how much is going to cost you. So the most important thing would be having an emergency fund set aside, because you never know what kind of complications can come into play along the way. But similarly, I think that the one thing that gets really missed in the whole conversation, because people are like, oh, kids aren't cheap, they're going to cost a lot. These are the things I need to think about in terms of costs, of what I need to buy furniture, food, am I nursing or am I pumping? Those are all costs in those beginning years. But the biggest, biggest cost is the loss of income. It is the one time in a person's life, in most cases, if you take parental leave, where not only do your expenses go up, but your income usually goes down at some capacity. And often we see parents, especially women, going back to work at, uh, reduced hours, which means that they also have a reduced income. And this has a lead on effect. If you're taking time off from work, chances are you're not getting your superpaid. Women are likely to retire with $136,000 less than men. This impacts their retirement fund. Women are also more likely to end up in poverty or homelessness because often they take off time from work and don't have income or money in the bank, don't have a retirement fund. Now, a lot of this is being changed a little bit with policy that's happening and a lot of companies who are trying to compensate people who are going on parental leave. But the compounding effect of that is the gender super gap that ends up happening due to these years. So one of the things that I think is the most crucial thing to think about is that time that someone is planning to take time off work. And now it's a little bit more shared. You're seeing a lot of heterosexual couples where the father is taking more time off as well, which is great. We want to see more of that. We want to see fathers be more engaged and be involved in a kid's life. But it is really important to think about those years and how taking parental leave is going to impact your earning capacity, your career growth, and of course, your retirement savings and of course, money.

Phil: And, um, the issues that come along with it is one of the leading causes of stress and often breakdowns in relationships as well. And many couples do break down as soon as they have a kid. It's like the kid's two or three years old and the relationship becomes a disaster, isn't it?

Ana: Yeah. Well, relationships get more stressful as you have kids. Statistics show that parents are less likely to be happy than their single counterparts. It's something that my partner and I joke around about quite a bit. Because you're sleep deprived, you are now thinking about the needs of another little human that talks back to you and argues, and you're just exhausted all the time. So if your relationship is already a little bit fractured, having kids is going to make it even more difficult. But then having financial stress on top of that is instrumental into seeing relationships fall apart.

Planning ahead can save you a lot of stress in the future

Which is why I wanted to put in my book all of the things that you can do for yourself if you're coupled or even if you're single, to consider so that you don't have that financial stress. I hear so many parents who are like, oh, we've put money aside, we have an emergency fund, but there are other things we haven't considered, like a will, like a child's protection plan. What happens if you or your partner were to pass away and who's going to look after your kid? What is the future that you want for them? And those things are so absolutely crucial because you never know what's going to happen. So if you can do some of that planning up front or if you're well into parenthood, prioritizing that planning now can save you so much stress in the future.

Phil: What about life insurance? Is that something that you've got and would recommend for people?

Ana: Yes, I think that you need to see what your own needs are and where you are, but there's definitely, I cover insurance in the book as well because that's really important as well. If you have a mortgage that you want to make sure is not going to impact your family in the case that something were to happen to you, whether that's you're off of work or you were to pass away, those are really important as well. Also, health insurance is something that people need to look at as well, especially if you're planning a pregnancy. The way your health insurance is set up will impact if you want to go to public or the private sector when it comes to hospitals as well. So all of those things are really important. And it's a lot to think about because it's so much fun to think about. What are the little outfits? How are we going to set up the nursery? What names should we pick? But this stuff is absolutely more crucial.

Phil: When you're preparing for something like this. And we're talking about a short time frame, really, preparation, uh, period over maybe three to five years, where would you suggest people put their money? Because some people would think, oh, let's put it in the share market and we'll make it even more money. But that's maybe not the best idea at this stage, is it?

Ana: Some things to think about is that if you have short term goals, putting your money in an emergency fund probably makes a bit more sense when it comes to the finances, because investing your money that you might need in a shorter time period can result in it being quite volatile. So when you need that money, and if you're looking to pull it out, it could be that the share market has fluctuated and it's not exactly where you want to be. I, uh, do, in the book, talk about investing holistically and also investing for your kids so they have a longer time horizon, right? If you have younger kids, they've got a very long life ahead of them, more so than us, and that might be an option for them. When it comes to long term planning, I know a lot of parents who are thinking about their kids, whether they want to support them by investing or putting money aside, uh, for their first home or their first car, there's a longer time horizon for that. So investing might be something that they want to consider. Again, when it comes to investing in any type of financial thing, as a parent, you want to make sure your own oxygen mask is on before you go and assist others. So for you, making sure you have an emergency fund, that you're not in any consumer debt before you move on to investing is really crucial. And then secondly, you want to make sure that your own retirement fund is set up in a way for you. If you're investing for your kids again, they have a longer time horizon than you do, whereas you might be approaching retirement sooner. So ensuring that your nest egg is set up, that your kids don't have to stress about you when they're young adults, is really a great way to set up security for your own family financially.

For younger parents, there's a lot of bureaucratic information around paid parental leave

Phil: Was there anything when you started researching and preparing the book that you didn't realize to something that became a bit of a light bulb moment for yourself?

Ana: For younger parents, there's a lot of bureaucratic information that they need to cipher through when it comes to paid parental leave and the childcare subsidy, both of those are dependent on your income. And the weird thing that kind of plays into this is that depending on when you fall pregnant, you might not have financially planned for the impact that can have on you. So, for example, something that happened to me is that my partner and I were planning on buying a new home. I decided to sell some shares that I had from an old job that I was at. I ended up having options in this company, working at a smaller tech company, and sold those because I was leaving that company. And I kind of needed to. I ended up being in a different tax bracket because I was in a different tax bracket. For that one financial year, I wasn't able to get any paid parental leave. I wasn't able to tap into any of, um, my childcare subsidies. So for the whole year that my kid was in childcare, I had to pay full price for that. Now, there's a big argument that people have, well, if you could afford it, then why should the government subsidize you? And this is where things get very complex, because who's getting penalized is often the mother in this situation. Had it been my partner who was in this situation, I wouldn't have lost out on the paid parental leave, for example. So the way that these schemes are kind of set up can be challenging. And if we are trying to reduce the gender pay gap, which does exist, I know some people don't believe it does. And if we're trying to also reduce the gender super gap, we really need to think of how do we empower parents, especially mothers, in these situations. There's often talk about how there's not a lot of women in senior roles or CEO roles, and often it's put back to, well, they're taking time off from work or they want to look after kids. So the argument is, again, put on mothers. But the thing is, there are mothers who want to move into these roles and be into these roles, and we need to support them through the childcare subsidy, through paid parental leave, so that they can have a bond with their kid, but then they can return back to work in a way that allows them to continue and grow our economy. And so, as I was doing research into this book, I've always heard about the gender super gap and the gender gap pay gap and wanted to dive into these topics further and further and realize that it is far more complex of a system than we really understand. So many different pieces play into that puzzle. So going back to one of the reasons why I wrote the book is even myself, who works in the financial industry, who understands financial planning, tax implication, and so forth, I was blindsided by this one little thing that I didn't realize that would impact me. The one financial year I decided to make the best financial choices for our family in purchasing a house and selling shares in order to do that and what that did is actually, in the end, it made no difference that I did that. I had to pay more tax.

Phil: Counterproductive.

Ana: It was counterproductive. Yeah, it put us backwards, actually. When I ran the numbers, it's like I barely have anything to show for it. So I didn't want. Again, I speak from a place of privilege. I'm quite fortunate that I had shares that I could tap into. This isn't the case for everyone, but it was a one year situation that I did that. Had I did that any other year, I wouldn't have been impacted the way that I was. And so it really leads me to believe that if you can be as financially educated in this kind of space, you can make better decisions. And I hope that for any family.

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People are doing it really tough at the moment. Everyone kind of is feeling it. It's quite easy to feel paralyzed

Phil: People are doing it really tough at the moment. Aren't know rents are going up, mortgages are going up, the price of living is going up. It's quite easy to feel like a, uh, deer in the headlights and just experience paralysis. Do you have any thoughts or techniques to suggest for people to start to take control again, even when times are so tough?

Ana: Yeah, there's a lot of things that you can consider, especially for your family. One of the big things is like looking at your expenses and seeing how you can reduce them. We talk about this all the time, but regardless, it is a really important exercise to do. If you have a mortgage, call up your bank and see if you can get a reduction. I literally just got one last week by just asking. It wasn't a lot, but 0.6% is better than zero, so I'll take it. Similarly, looking at any of your energy bills, seeing if you can jump to another company again, there's a loyalty tax, which means that if you stay at the same company, often they're going to charge you more than if you're a brand new customer. So going to another company sometimes is worth it. Similarly, when it comes to your Internet provider and so forth. So these are some of the biggest costs that ends up happening in a house. Same with transportation. There's apps that you can use to see where the best gas prices are, and you can make these decisions based on that because these are the biggest expenses. If you can reduce them even by a little bit, that compounding effect over the year is going to be huge. We can cut the lattes and so forth here and there. The $5 that you do every once in a while is not maybe as impactful as taking off 100 or $1,000 off your mortgage. So if you can dive into some of those things and reduce them as much as possible, that's a great way. Bulk buying food. I know with families, kids are endless pits of eating food. And if you can do some bulk buying, shopping, when it comes to, like, Costco, Aldi's really cheap. Just changing the ways that you kind of use that stuff or making bulk food is really important. But it is hard. I really empathize. I know that we feel it. Everyone kind of is feeling it. Even if you're in a good financial situation, people do feel it, let alone people who are struggling, single parents. It is really, really hard right now, and unfortunately, it feels like there's not much you can do. So I really do empathize.

Phil: So I guess now, uh, that you've become an authority in this space. You're having a lot of conversations with people about this. What are some of the stories that you're hearing or some of the questions that you're being asked by people who've read the book?

Ana: Yeah, there's so many great stories, and everyone has completely different individual experiences, things that I would have never thought of. For example, stories around parents who were maybe on parental leave, deciding to buy a house, realizing that because they're off work, they're not going to be able to take as much, uh, out of the bank for their mortgage. These are things that obviously they make sense, but you might not have thought about it at that time. And so I just try to capture that all in the book. Other parents who have children who might have special needs, and therefore there's extra costs that go into that. So just being as financially prepared as possible is really important. But everyone has it hard. At the end of the day, having kids is very expensive, and so if there's anything that you can do to reduce those costs, it's really important. But the big thing is just talking about it, getting different ideas from other parents, seeing how they navigate that often, uh, talking about what are ways that we can do it for a birthday party or when the holidays come up, and having different ideas around how to keep costs low. At the end of the day, most of the time, our kids just want to spend time with us. Maybe not when they're teenagers, but for the most part, they want to spend time with us. And that's the most important thing that you can do instead of spending money on your kids is just literally spending time.

Phil: So if you're thinking about the long term for your child or children, you can start investing at an early age for them, whether it's to give them a nest egg in the future or whether it's to prepare for their education. What are some thoughts that you have on the best way to go about this?

Ana: Yeah, so there's a couple of different ways that I outline in the book in terms of how you can invest for a kid, and a couple of them are you can invest in a minor's account, in your own name, in an investment bond. There's also people who invest through their super as well for their kids. So there's a couple of different ways that you can consider which is best for you. There are some tax implications based on how you invest, especially for kids. So it's not something that you want to just do impulsively. There is a bit of research that needs to be done around that. But overall, I know that a lot of parents do want to invest for their kids. They want to think about their future and support them in some way. And by doing that, investing is such a good way for a lot of parents because it is about long term, especially if you're set up in a way where you're focused on low fee index funds that, uh, are diversified. Hopefully the outcome will be a really positive one in 2030 or 40 years, depending on when that money wants to get passed on to the kids. The interesting part is talking to parents about how they think about this money. And that's the part that I really love chatting about. For some people, they want to give them a lump sum of money when they hit a certain age. For other parents, it's about wanting to support them when they're ready to buy a property. Other parents, they don't want to tell them at all until the kids prove themselves that they're financially smart enough to handle a bit of money, whereas others are like, I want to invest in their education because that's more important than giving them a leg up in terms of assets. So it is interesting hearing these different ways and all of the different ways that you can invest. I also forgot to mention trust account as well. All the different ways that you can consider really depends on your financial situation and how you want to protect yourself, protect your kids, and the tax implications of that. So without diving into all of the different things, it is really important for parents to think about their future for their kids. Again, though, it does come with a little bit of foresight and planning around that, because there are those tax implications.

Phil: And, um, conversations with accountants and financial professionals as well. Often difficult to save your money in the long term. Don't stint on those sort of things.

Ana: I completely agree. I think so many people worry that, like, oh, I don't want to talk to a financial accountant for whatever reason. I mean, at the end of the day, they're going to help you save money or make the best decisions that are for you. So it is really important. Same with financial planners. Sometimes they just get, uh, a bad rep in so many ways. But there are times in your life where it is really beneficial to do some family planning around money, so those people are there to help you.

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Cost of living and government policies have contributed to increasing childcare costs

Phil: When you have kids, you end up spending a lot of time with other families and other parents, most of the time because you want your kids to get together. What are some of the conversations you're having at the moment when you get together for those kids? Birthday parties.

Ana: Yeah, I think the big one is cost of living. Like people just being really surprised with how much they have to pay for their mortgage or their rent, food being a huge one, and also how that impacts plans that families have had. One of the things for me is my family is in Canada for the most part. Some of them are in Croatia. And for me, part of our budget is trying to ensure that I have some money to take a trip every couple years to go see those people. And the conversations that a lot of parents are having is how to manage their budget, their needs, versus their wants, and especially with the wants needing to get pushed back. A lot of parents do want to prioritize their kids, but they're willing to step back from the things that they want for themselves, and I see that as well. It's like I want to provide for my kids and I don't want them to feel impacted, but because of that, I might not spend the money on myself in the way that I was planning to. Phil, do you see mean? Um, you know, you're a father as well.

Phil: Well, look, I'm a bit older than you. I'm actually quite shocked because when I brought up my daughter, the cost of living was a lot less. And things like, just, there were things that were easily manageable and school fees and so forth were easily manageable. What I am shocked, though, about is the way that legislation and government policies have contributed to the amount of costs that are imposed on families nowadays. And I know governments are trying to do the right thing, but I just think they end up making things even cost more for everyone. That's me on my soapbox.

Ana: No, I love soapbox conversations. It is interesting as you see policy evolve and evolve and evolve as we have over how many years sometimes.

Phil: Sorry. To me, it's like with childcare, it seemed to be that you'd have a childcare center that you took your child to, and they played. They weren't early education centers. You didn't have to have an early education degree to work in one of these things. It was just basically getting together, get the kids together, give them m nice little outings, get them to play, go to the park. And I think it's so good on a couple. I mean, we're never going to go back to those days. I know we're never going to go back to those days, but I like the idea that kids are just allowed to play. I don't really believe that you should be trying to educate them too much beyond the basics, uh, from a very early age. And the costs that have been imposed are just a huge financial cost on society.

Ana: Well, the interesting thing about early childhood educators are that they are obviously educated when it comes to looking after kids. Kids still get to play, they still get to do that stuff, but they get to learn. And the people who are teaching them and who are looking after them are educated in a space where they know how to deal with little people. The idea why I don't like even using the word childcare is because it's not just people caring for your kids, it's people understanding little brains and how they're developing. And that's the big difference. The unfortunate thing is that this sector has been definitely overworked, exhausted in ways taken advantage of during COVID And so a lot of people have left this area, in this sector to go find better paid jobs. Educators are one of the lowest paid, educated people in our society. And again, this is an example of a women dominated area that is so underpaid in regards to other places. So it's kind of, in a way, the system has done a disservice to our little humans who are then going off to school and so forth. So I think it is worth putting money into these services and into these places because we need to support kids. There are kids, I think, one in five, who are underprivileged, who are going to schools and are not succeeding in the way that they want to. And some of these policies that are put into place. For example, there's a thing called an activity test. And if you're a parent who's maybe off work for a while and so forth, you will not be able to get the childcare subsidy because you're not working for that time. And so if you have consecutive kids in a row, you might not have access to some of the subsidies. So the system is set up to penalize, potentially people who are lower income and who need the support. So if you are a parent who wants to return to work, you might not even be able to put your child into early childhood education and care because you're not going to get subsidized. So how can you go for job interviews and look for roles? It's like a catch 22 in the sense that we want to see more parents, more women in the workforce, but we're not going to support them. And then we worry about why our population growth has gone down and what do we do about it if we're not going to put money in the areas where we want to support people and we're losing educators at the same time, we're just breaking the system. So instead of relooking at the policy, holistically adjusting so that we can support parents who want to go back to work, we're just kind of slapping on new rules along the way to make it a little bit better of, uh, just a bunch of band aids. So that's the hard part. That's the hard part, and that's the part that I came across so much when I talk to educators, when I talk to parents who are trying to navigate this space. That was my soapbox there.

Phil: And of course, the providers of early, uh, education centers now are large listed companies. And often the case, they're running for a profit as well. And they're the only ones that can provide the compliance that's been imposed on this sector. As well.

Ana: Well, that's the interesting part about these private centers as well, is that the government has subsidized parents for a certain percentage. And the funny thing is that most of these centers have increased their prices more so than wage growth and more so than inflation. So it is a higher percentage that parents are paying. The government's like, look, we're subsidizing parents. Meanwhile, the centers are saying, well, if you guys are getting subsidized, we're just going to raise the prices because everything does cost money. The hard part is looking at these private centers who are often underpaying their educators. And similarly, the ratios when it comes to kids are at a bare minimum. They maybe are ranked a little bit lower when it comes to quality of care. There's things that you can look up to, see what your center is rated at. I have all that in the book as well. But that's the hard part that you see. Like, I'm very fortunate. My kids are at a not for profit, council run center. And you can see that the ratio of educators to kids is higher than what is expected. You can see that the educators there are happier, there's less turnover, and a lot of that is because they are not profit driven. You have a council or you have, uh, a community of parents who are invested in that center, invested in their kids education and happiness and quality and so forth. And I'm not saying that private centers and educators there are doing a poor job. Like educators are fantastic everywhere, but because it is profit driven, it is just a slightly different setup. It is less around quality and more about profits. And this is the hard dilemma that we have as parents. We want to invest for our kids future, so we invest in potentially etfs and shares and so forth because we want to get a profit, we want to get dividends. Are, uh, we also investing in those things that are harming our children, such as these centers? That's the hard part. That's the complex thing where you're trying to use your money to do good, but is how you're using money doing good for you. That's the challenge that I often face when I think about where I'm investing, where I'm putting my money, and what are the changes I want to see in the world today.

Phil: I didn't realize we were going to get so serious.

Ana: I know, uh, but this is the dilemma that so many of us have.

Phil: Yeah, you want to make money out of profits, but then the profit motive might not be the best thing for you on a personal level.

Ana: Yeah. And you see this in so many different ways. You see this in war. Where is your money being invested? How is taxpayer money being used in weapons and so forth? Right? It's a challenging thing as a parent, as anybody, making the ethical right choices of investing of things you support, but then seeing how that kind of actually plays out in the real world, and that's exactly the thing with private centers.

How can people find out more about you and about the podcast and the book

Phil: So getting back to the book, how can people find out more about you and about the podcast and the book?

Ana: Yeah, absolutely. You can follow me at Ana Kresina whatever socials, I'm there. And if you want to get your hands on my book, it's called Kids Ain't cheap, how to plan financially for parenthood and your family's future. And you can get that wherever you get your books online or even in your local bookstore. Also, you can check out my podcast, the get rich slow club. Also wherever you get your podcasts as well.

Phil: Hannah, um, it's been great having with you again, getting the band back together. Good luck for everything in this new year.

Ana: Phil, thanks so much. It's always a pleasure, and hopefully this pancake wasn't a total flop.

Chloe: Thanks for listening to shares for beginners. You can find if you enjoy listening, please take a moment to rate or review in your podcast player or tell a friend who might want to learn more about investing for their future.

TONY KYNASTON is a multi-millionaire professional investor thanks to the QAV checklist he developed . Tony's knowledge and calm analysis takes the guesswork out of share market investing.

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