MATHEW HODGE | Morningstar Australasia

· Podcast Episodes
Upgrading your mental software for better investing - Mathew Hodge from Morningstar Australia

What's your investment style? What makes a good business? What makes a good investment? In this episode I'm joined by Matthew Hodge, Director of Equity Research for Morningstar Australasia.

“There are hoards of professionals out there who are spending their time doing this stuff, right? Like you can't compete with that. I occasionally go to a wine tasting group, right? And this wine tasting group is full of people who are working in the industry and tasting a hundred or 200 wines a week. I can't compete with that as an amateur. You have to know your limitations, right. But it's possible if you're interested and you learn and you figure out your niche and what you are looking for. What's your investment style? What makes a good business? What makes a good investment?.”

We spoke about learning to become a better investor, upgrading your own software, a couple of key ratios that help you understand company valuations and the importance of investing what you know and understand.

"I think the best thing to do is spend less than you earn, have a consistent savings discipline, which I know is, is difficult to do. But if you do that and you just put your money into something simple, like an index fund, it will grow over time. It might reach a point where you've got half a million dollars or something like that. And if at that point, you wanna say, okay, now I think this is enough money for me to want to start to try to manage it myself, maybe give yourself a sleeve of that. This is not specific advice, but this is just a philosophy."


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Chloe (1s):
Shares for Beginners

Mathew (3s):
Number one, investment, invest in yourself. Right? So I think that's, that's key and it may feel like I don't really have an hour in the day to do this, but if you do, right, it's gonna be obvious over time that you are learning and advancing relative to the people around you. And you'll be running different software. It's just getting a software upgrade, right? So you want to be running the best software and not just relying on what you've got or what you feel comfortable with

Phil (32s):
G'day and welcome back to Shares for Beginners. I'm Phil Muscatello. What are your investment goals? And do you have a plan to reach them? How do you set up a portfolio to help you achieve those goals? Helping us out today is Mathew Hodge. Good day, Mathew,

Mathew (46s):
How's it going?

Phil (47s):
Mathew's a director of equity research Australia and New Zealand for Morningstar a Australasia, but I've got a list of questions here, but I just quickly just wanted to run through your background in mining. You're actually a mining analyst.

Mathew (60s):
It, it was, it was very brief actually. So I studied mining engineering originally and I ended up in central Queensland in the coal fields. It took me about eight months to figure out my future wasn't in a black hole. I got out of there and was fortunate enough to come back to Sydney and get a job with a very small financial company at the time, which grew, you know, as right at the start of the technology, boom and, and Yahoo finance and Commsec, and they're all needing data and information and research. So I was right there at the start and have been lucky to ride that ride that wave through. And as the business has grown opportunities presented themselves.

Mathew (1m 40s):
And I think 2006 Morningstar took over the company, which is obviously very good for us too. So I attribute a lot of my career to luck.

Phil (1m 49s):
I think it's the same way for all of us. Isn't it? Yeah. Actually, my dad was a mining engineer as well. Really? Yeah. He was going around to mines. He, he specialized in mine shaft designing. He, he worked at Alstom. Is it Alstrom?

Mathew (2m 0s):
Alstom? Yeah. SK, yeah. It's a French engineering company, I think.

Phil (2m 4s):
Yeah. So my, my childhood is full of memories of photos of my dad in, you know, Mount is or Zeehan or you know, many of those

Mathew (2m 12s):
Locations. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool.

Phil (2m 14s):
Okay. So let's get back to designing a portfolio. So in the first instance, how should a long-term investor approach the decision to buy or avoid a company share stock, whatever you wanna call it?

Mathew (2m 28s):
Well, I think you wanna step back and ask another question first is like, what, what are you doing? What, what are you doing this for? What are your actual goals, right? Do you want to invest in shares because you are interested in the stock market. You're interested in, in businesses. That's one reason, right? And if you start investing and you get deep into reading and, and learning, you can do that, right. If your goal is to be kind of financially secure and retire without worrying about money, the best way to get rich is to get rich slowly, you know, understand a, a lot of your podcast listeners are quite young, which is great, right? Like time is the compounding variable and people wanna beat the market. Right. They wanna beat the market by a percent or 2%, right?

Mathew (3m 10s):
Like if you can do that consistently, you are a, a God basically. Right? So it's very, very different.

Phil (3m 16s):
A lot of fund managers can't do

Mathew (3m 18s):
That. That's right. Well, and consistently, and the fund managing industry on aggregate cannot do it after fees, right? So it's very, very difficult. And these are people who are focused on this full time. Unless it's an interest and a passion, it takes a lot of time to do it well. Particularly when you've got a small amount of money. I think the best thing to do is spend less than you earn, have a consistent savings discipline, which I know is, is difficult to do. But if you do that and you just put your money into something simple, like an index fund, it will grow over time. Right. It might reach a point where you've got half a million dollars or something like that. Right. And, and if at that point, you wanna say, okay, now I think this is enough money for me to wanna start, to try to manage it myself.

Mathew (4m 0s):
Maybe give yourself a sleeve of that. Right. This is not specific advice, but this is just kind of like a philosophy, I guess. Right. So,

Phil (4m 9s):
And it's interesting that you mentioned that if you have an interest in it, because that's the key to it really isn't it because you're not going to learn to become a fantastic investor, just because you've got a stock tip from one of your mates for example,

Mathew (4m 22s):
If it's not a passion, I would just dissuade people from going down that road. Basically there, there are hoards of professionals out there who are spending their time doing this stuff, right? Like you can't compete with that. I occasionally go to a, a wine tasting group, right? And this wine tasting group is full of people who are working in the industry and tasting a hundred or 200 wines a week. I can't compete with that as an amateur, right. So I guess you have to know your limitations, right. But it's possible, right. If you're interested and you learn and you figure out your niche and what you are looking for, you know, what's your investment style? What makes a good business? What makes a good investment?

Mathew (5m 3s):
What are, what's the criteria you need? Right. You can have a fulfilling sort of a leisure activity as well, but it can be financially rewarding as well.

Phil (5m 12s):
I spoke recently to an analyst and he used the phrase that accounting is the language of investing. And it's really being able to understand what you're reading when you're looking at a company report. That would be a big part of it in your opinion?

Mathew (5m 29s):
I don't come from a finance background. Right. And, and I think for a lot of people that do they, you know, particularly see this with accountants, right. They focus on the numbers. Right. But

Phil (5m 38s):
The numbers, some say, you don't agree with that.

Mathew (5m 39s):
Then the, the numbers are only part of the story. Right. And you can understand stories by walking into a shop, right? Like One up on Wall Street, classic book talked about stockings sold at the supermarket counter in a little egg. Right. And because that product was selling like hot cakes and it was material to the business that owned it, that was a money making opportunity that didn't require a spreadsheet. Right. That's just required an understanding of what was happening in the world. Right. So sometimes when there are big opportunities, yes, it's important to understand the financials, but sometimes they can, can be so simple as to, to not be needing that. Right. So I think finance probably tends to focus maybe too much on the numbers and the qualitative, what's the story here?

Mathew (6m 27s):
What's the growth prospects. How much does it cost these guys to grow? What kind of returns to expect, how that qualitative mixes together with the quantitative is really important

Phil (6m 38s):
Just to define qualitative and quantitative. I heard it described recently as qualitative is feely and quantitative is numbery. Mm.

Mathew (6m 50s):
That's not a bad hack. I might need to think on that one and come, but I mean, I guess I've never really questioned what makes quantitative quantitative, well, the quantitative bit is easy, right? Yeah. That's the numbers, right? So that's the profit and loss statement. The, the balance sheet, the cash flows, all the ratios that come off the back of that. Right. That's the, that's the quantitative stuff. The qualitative stuff, I guess, is, you know, what's the business model, what's the strategy? What, what are the key drivers? Those are the things that you wanna understand

Phil (7m 24s):
And see, the interesting thing though, is that using that Peter Lynch model invest in what, you know, it really comes down then to companies that are retailers, because you're going to be purchasing products from them. Or there might might be, say, for example, a business software that you might be exposed to in the course of your day to day activities, but then it's not going to give you direct experience of a lot of other businesses that might be very highly investible,

Mathew (7m 53s):
I guess. I think Buffett talks about circles of competence, right. So where do you want to start? Right. So I think starting where, you know, or you've got a fair idea is probably not a, a bad place to start. Right. And then you can do the research and, and do the learning and the education piece to start to understand other industries. Right. That's kind of how I would suggest perhaps going about it. Yeah. So, and if, if you did start with, you know, what I was kind of suggesting where you, the majority of your money is in an index fund, and you're really not taking any swings at that, then you can really focus on the ones where you do understand them. And I think that is important. You know, I think Buffett also talks about, you know, you should have a punt card with 20 slots, right.

Mathew (8m 37s):
And you should think very carefully about the slots that you, you punch when you buy a stock. Right. Because you don't get many swings. And if you did that, had that discipline, you'd be a much better investor.

Phil (8m 48s):
How does that work? I haven't heard about that concept of the,

Mathew (8m 51s):
Well, I think he's trying to say like, if, if over your investing lifetime, yeah. You can only buy 20 things, right. When you go to buy something, you have to have real conviction. Hey, I'm using 5% of my, of my purchasing decisions in my life here. This really has to matter. And I really have to have strong conviction and understanding around this, as opposed to this charts, forming a diamond pattern and I'm selling this one and buying that one. I mean, I dunno if you've talked about the stats on, on traders in this podcast, but most of them lose a lot of money, which is why they have nice businesses and fancy ads. You know, they want more, it's, it's a little, it's not that far away from gambling.

Mathew (9m 31s):
You know,

Phil (9m 32s):
Another guest though, was just speaking to, was talking about the, the whole Gamestop phenomenon in the United States. Yeah. And how it came at a time when there was no sports betting. I mean, sports betting has only just been legalized, which I find insane in the United States. Yeah. On a federal level, not in every state of course, but then during the pandemic and the shutdowns, there was no games to, to bet on. Yeah. And that was one of the driving factors behind the Gamestop phenomenon.

Mathew (10m 1s):
Yeah. I think the amount of money that was in the market as well, the amount of, you know, fiscal and monetary support that had been pumped in the economy and there was just money sloshing around, like,

Phil (10m 13s):
Know where to spend

Mathew (10m 14s):
It. And you saw it in cryptocurrency and there were like, the market itself was going really well. You wanna talk about timing the market. Those are the things to look out for and say, Hey, perhaps I should be a little bit more cautious here. Right? Like there's some crazy stuff going on here. I'm pretty sure that won't last. I don't know when it will stop, but I need to make sure I'm not taking excessive risk here. Right. Because at some point there will be a, a comeuppance.

Phil (10m 41s):
So presuming that a listener does want to take an interest in researching companies a bit more, what are some of the common ratios that they should learn about before building a portfolio?

Mathew (10m 50s):
Yeah. I mean, I think Howard Marks talks about this among others is, you know, people are looking for a formula and a number, right. And if it's formulas and numbers, there's a whole army of quantitative analysts out there mining that stuff. Right. So it has to be more than that. Right. So you need to bring the, the qualitative understanding to bear as well. Having said that return on invested capital is one that we particularly use at Morningstar. So for every dollar of capital invested in this business, how much is it gonna return you every year? Is it gonna return you, you know, 10 cents, 10%, or is it gonna return you 20% or 50%? Or is it gonna return you five?

Mathew (11m 30s):
You know, that's one piece of information, right.

Phil (11m 33s):
And, and where do, can you find that number?

Mathew (11m 35s):
Well, where I would find it is we've got started, we've got a data product called data analysis, which I use religiously. I don't do many things religiously, but that is one. And so I can go to there and use that, but our products will have that. So I think or you'll be able to find four specific stocks. You, you can screen and find things like that

Phil (11m 55s):
And invested capital. What does that represent?

Mathew (11m 58s):
It represents the assets of the business, right? So if we're talking about BHP, it's the, the cost of the, the trucks, the plant equipment, the processing plant, what they paid to build the mine, essentially, that would be the investor capital base, which is the denominator in the equation. Yep. And the return is kind of the after tax return after excluding any kind of interest payments. Right? So the, the, the benefit with using return on invested capital is it says, let's pretend this business is completely ungeared. And why does that matter? Okay. Well, if you use a return on equity, what happens is you might have a business that's, that's generating a modest, excess return on inveson capital, but if you gear it up five times, the return on equity looks amazing, right?

Mathew (12m 43s):
It could be 20, 30, you know, more percent, right. So if you're using return on equity as a screen, because it's got that financial leverage factor in there, it can lead you into risk taking. So if you are in really good times, right, and you're searching for return and equity really good times is when these businesses tend to get geared up, the market may be somewhat cautious on these names. So have an understanding of greater than average financial risk. And so they'll show up nicely on a PE to a return equity and PE screen you're essentially screening for over-geared companies. Right. And then, okay. Market turns down, it's like, whoa. You know, these are the businesses that are more likely than not to get hit.

Mathew (13m 24s):
Right. So,

Phil (13m 25s):
So return on investment invested capital is something that's gives you a more accurate overview of the, the potential of the

Mathew (13m 34s):
Company. It doesn't have that bias, right. Yeah. Of return on equity. And a lot of people use return on equity and it's fine, but you just need to understand that

Phil (13m 41s):
There is a difference isn't

Mathew (13m 42s):
There. Yeah. Yeah. So if, if you are deeply interested, if you just Googled DuPont analysis, you know, that pull up the Wiki page, I find DuPont analysis really, really useful as well. And it basically disambiguatesA the return on equity into three parts. It's like the net profit margin, the asset turnover. So how much revenue for every dollar of asset you've got and the leverage factor. So how much financial leverage. Right. And why that's interesting is you can, it can tell you, is this a, a high margin, low turnover business is a low margin, high turnover business, like a supermarket or something like that. Is it very capital intensive? So, you know, mining companies, their asset turnover might be one or something like that, you know, as opposed to a SaaS company, the asset turnover might be humongous.

Mathew (14m 30s):
Right. So, and all of those factors multiply together. Right? So if you've got something that is high margin and high asset turnover, you can generate phenomenal returns on equity. Right. Like in some of these, you know, web based businesses, you know, like a, like a Facebook, every dollar that comes in is basically incremental profit. Right. So highly scalable.

Phil (14m 58s):
So, yeah. Are there any other ratios you wanted to speak of?

Mathew (15m 1s):
It kind of depends what the business is, right. So, you know, if it's a SAS business, you care about growth, user numbers, engagement time on site, things like that. If it's a mining company, you care about where it sits on the cost curve, what's the production costs. You know, if it's a bank, there's all sorts of things you wanna know about. You wanna know about the, the capital ratios. Is it well capitalized relative to peers, it seems like banks are too big to fail. So on that basis, you just wanna make sure you're in the top half, I guess, you know, you don't wanna be the worst bank because, you know, if there is something like a, like the bad that ever happens, you, you just don't wanna be in the, in the worst one.

Mathew (15m 44s):
You know,

Phil (15m 44s):
You've mentioned a couple of authors. What are some of the publications and books that you would suggest investors reading?

Mathew (15m 52s):
Yeah. Did you, did you write that question?

Phil (15m 55s):
No, it's one

Mathew (15m 56s):
Of yours. I was gonna that's cool. The question itself presumes that reading is the only way to learn. Right. Which I disagree with. Right. We are fortunate to be in a position where there's just been an absolute proliferation of different kinds of, of media. Right. If I'm honest and I feel a bit bad about this, I don't read a lot of books anymore. I get on my bike, go for a bike ride and I listen to podcasts. Right. Or I listen to something on YouTube. Right. So all of the Berkshire Hathaway, AGMs, they're all on YouTube. I think I've ground my way through all of them now.

Mathew (16m 38s):
And I think you do that once, maybe twice, if there's something really interesting and they give you a lot of good ideas and, and fundamental mental models. Right. So Charlie Munger's book who I highly recommend Poor Charlie's AlmanaM talks about developing mental models, right? So there's, there's some that I, that I, I really like Howard marks is great. There's this podcast called Farham street. And he's another buffet disciple that's really interested in mental models. So I think whenever you are learning, and whenever that learning has longer term value, you are kind of compounding your own value. Right?

Mathew (17m 18s):
So I think Buffett and Muner both talk about number one, investment, invest in yourself. Right. So I think that's, that's key and it may feel like I don't really have an hour in the day to do this, but if you do right, it's gonna be obvious over time that you are learning and advancing relative to the people around you, and you'll be running different software. It's just getting a software upgrade, right? So you wanna be running the best software and not just relying on what you've got or what you feel comfortable with.

Phil (17m 48s):
I think it's important to listen to the words, cuz you're not gonna understand all the words straight off the bat, but if you keep listening, you will learn and pick those things up by osmosis

Mathew (17m 59s):
Is some things do take longer, right. Or you need to have them explained in a different way, or it's a different, you know, presenter that presents that idea. You, but you might have a feeling like, Hey, there's something in this, right? Like, and then you find Daniel Kahneman talking about behavioural science. Right. And you're like, oh, okay. I can see now it makes sense. Right? So like there's so much stuff, even on YouTube lectures and things like that now from, we don't need to have the C grade lecturer to teach us. Right. We can go to the masters now. And that is a massive advancement for society and humanity. And for anyone who wants to learn,

Phil (18m 39s):
Companies can be affected by many different events, both internal in the company or even macro events. What are some of the company events that cause professional investors to change their minds about holding a stock?

Mathew (18m 52s):
Oh, well again, it kind of depends what it is, right?

Phil (18m 56s):
There's so many isn't there,

Mathew (18m 58s):
There it is. It is infinite, right. You know, like World Trade Centre, the pandemic, trade disruptions, commodity prices, house prices, interest rates. It really just depends what the business is and what their exposure is. So that that's really important. Right. And I think if you are investing in a stock, you need to understand what kind of macro factors you are in effect betting on and be conscious of that. Right. I, I kind of think, trying to predict some of these things is a bit of a fools errand, you know, I think economic forecasts are very similar to the, the set of numbers that we saw previously.

Mathew (19m 37s):
Right. Which is fine. And normally that's right. But it's of little value. And then occasionally, you know, when things are very different, it's like, okay, it would've been nice to know that, but it's, I think it's it, it's almost impossible to predict. Right. So I think you want to think about having the cycle work for you. Right. So when, think about what's a recipe for when the cycle is high. Right. And I think we've seen a lot of that in the last couple of years, cryptocurrency

Phil (20m 4s):
And that's the growth stocks and cryptocurrencies,

Mathew (20m 6s):
Cryptocurrency, all of, all of that stuff. Right. So here's my list of markers to, you know, kind of like when you've got a road that's subject to flooding, you wanna have the, you know, kind of signpost and it doesn't have to be exactly right, but you need to know. Right. And when everyone else is excited, that's a good thing too. Like, you know, the fear greed, the, the, the VIX indicator, you know, use those as contrary signals, right? So when everyone else is feeling awesome and everyone else is making a lot of money every day and the stock market is going up at percent every day, everyone thinks that's normal. Right? You don't wanna be the one selling when everyone rushes for the door at the same time, realize that was the Goldilocks assumptions that we had kind of 12 months ago.

Mathew (20m 50s):
I think when the market was doing really well, like I was kind of fearful because it's like, there's so many things you can point to that says, this is this isn't gonna stay in place. Right. But the markets just didn't care. And that's what happens in bull market. You just get a lot of confidence and, you know, things get thrown in front of the market ,concerns and worries and issues. And it just keeps rolling over them like a steam roller. And then one day it wakes up and goes, oh my God, there's all this stuff around. And oh, you know, so I think the Mr. Market analogy's a really good one, right. You know, this, this idea that there's this crazy guy just offering you prices to buy and sell every day.

Mathew (21m 31s):
Right. And you, you use him not the other way around. Right. So if you can get that kind of mentality and discipline, it's gonna feel hard because you're gonna be doing different things from everybody else. Right. So if you're on Twitter or Reddit or something like that, and you're doing what the other crowd's doing, that's probably not gonna be great for your mental health and your investing discipline. So I think, you know, listening to some of those quieter voices, those that have been around for a long period of time, if you've been around for a long period of time, it means you've had to survive the test of time. You know? So you're more likely to kind of know what you're talking about.

Phil (22m 7s):
You mentioned the VIX indicator, what is that? And how can people look at it and think about possibly there might be something happening in the future.

Mathew (22m 17s):
Yeah. It's just the volatility index and you can Google it and you can, you can find it very easily. And it goes back over, over time. And it tends to spike when prices are moving a lot and prices, you know, talk about markets tends to be stairs up and elevator down. Right. So the VIX tends to spike. You know, when there are, there are big moves in the, in the market, right? So you could use something like that as a contrarian indicator of when to, okay, I've been, you know, somewhat conservative. And I was targeting this kind of weight of equities and I was at the bottom of my range, but now I can see there's a lot of doom and gloom around. I'm gonna make the bold assumption that the economy's gonna continue and the stock market will continue.

Mathew (22m 60s):
Cuz otherwise we're all in deep trouble, which, which at the bottom of the GFC, I think you had to kind of hold your nose and think that right. And, and, and it's gonna feel like that, but those are the, those are some of the best times to, to invest

Phil (23m 17s):
Well, in that case, lots of investors might wish to try and time the market by going to cash when they see storm clouds on the horizon. But is this wise

Mathew (23m 25s):
I wouldn't try to. Right. So I, because

Phil (23m 28s):
This is all about the timing thing, isn't it?

Mathew (23m 30s):
Yeah. And I think it's just very, very difficult to do that. Right. And you might get it right, right. One in a row. I think Peter Schiff was a, was a phenomenon coming out of the, the GFC. There were a bunch of them. Right. And there might even be others that get two in a row, you know, like it's just super, super hard. Right. And what are you taking on? You're taking on depending what kind of business it is, you know, you're taking on Chinese fiscal policy, central bank, policy, central bank policy globally. There are people that can make actions, which are contrary to kind of what you hypothesize, you know?

Mathew (24m 10s):
So I just think it's very difficult to know all that sort of stuff. So instead, you know, what I think is if you've, let's say you've got to the point where you've got quite a decent amount of, of money and, and you've got some allocation to fixed income, bonds and you've got some allocation towards equities as well. We publish a, a price to fair value indicator, which shows, you know, over time, it's shown signal, right. When, when the market's been expensive and it's trading above kind of 1.1 and hasn't portended good returns for the next little while. Right. But then the period that we, we just kind of, I don't know if we're coming out of it or not, but I think about a month ago, we, we hadn't had the market, so undervalued on average, according to our valuations, you had to go back to the GFC and very briefly the COVID pandemic, but that window closed very quickly.

Mathew (25m 6s):
So if you have some flexibility to move your allocation to equity, then you know, if you are doing opposite things to the market, if you are selling last year into the strength, buying this year into some weakness, you know, it might not be exactly right. But you know, there's also a school of thought to say, look, just forget about all of that. And just, I'm just gonna invest thousand dollars a month or whatever it is. Right. And I'm just gonna do that over time and build that up over time. Right.

Phil (25m 33s):
Yeah. Yeah. And so when you're buying it, when the market's down, you're getting bargains and then you might be buying some other ones at toppy, but they'll a average out

Mathew (25m 40s):
That's right. Dollar cost averaging, you know, it helps you out.

Phil (25m 44s):
What's the one main thing that you would advise listeners to be aware of when approaching investing?

Mathew (25m 49s):
Well, it's hard to really reduce it down to one, just the one thing. Yeah. One thing, right. I guess I perhaps answer the question differently is right. Like, know what you're doing and why. Right. And then have your discipline and stick to that. Right. If you've got the rules, I, I like the figure, I forget what it's called in legal terms. You know, the lady with the blindfold, you know? Yeah.

Phil (26m 10s):
Scales of justice,

Mathew (26m 12s):
Something like that. People know what I mean? Right. So I think it's, it's a really interesting idea, right? Like let's put the blindfold on and pretend none of this stuff is happening. Right. I'm gonna make the rules for all seasons now, right. With that objectivity. Right. And I think that's a really important discipline, right? So if the market's doing this, you know, this is how I want to behave. If the market's doing this, this is how I wanna behave. So some of the stuff is saying about maybe being a bit more cautious when things are really, really strong, keeping a bit of money on the table and, and then, you know, being brave enough to stick to your convictions and invest when you know, things don't look so good is gonna help you out.

Mathew (26m 53s):
Right. So,

Phil (26m 55s):
So tell us about Morningstar. What do you do at Morningstar?

Mathew (26m 57s):
Well, I used to cover mining stocks, but fortunately escape reached escape velocity on that. So I head up the team here now. So

Phil (27m 7s):
Equities research. So you're

Mathew (27m 8s):
Looking at equity research. Yeah. Yeah. We've got a team of 17, including a few associates. We cover nearly 200 stocks across Australia, New Zealand, the vast majority of the ASX 100 and most of the 200 and a smattering of Kiwi stocks as well. I see all sorts of stuff. You know, which one of the great things about this particular job is it's constantly forcing you to learn. Right. And, and not every day are those learnings pleasant. Right. But you can look back on that and say, okay, you can see the progress, right? Like, and when I say not pleasant, right?

Mathew (27m 48s):
It's like some company does something completely unexpected and you've gotta go, okay. That, wasn't what I thought, what do we deal with? How do we deal with that? Right. And that goes into the mix and you build your experience and that's all rewarding and interesting.

Phil (28m 6s):
And if listeners wanna find out more about Morningstar and the research that's offered.

Mathew (28m 10s):
Yeah. So you can go to, we have a, a free trial, which is available to everyone. You can get on, have a look at the research. There's a lot of articles. I think some of them are free even around the, some of these ideas around personal finance and discipline and how to build up your wealth over time. That's not just, you know, picking stocks. Right. And I think that's an important part of the equation too.

Phil (28m 36s):
Matthew Hodge. Thanks very much for joining me today.

Mathew (28m 40s):

Phil (28m 41s):
If you found this podcast helpful, please tell a friend, especially if it's someone who needs to start thinking about investing for their future, you'll be helping them and helping me to keep this show on the road.

chloe (28m 52s):
Shares for beginners is for information and educational purposes, only it isn't financial advice and you shouldn't buy or sell any investments based on what you've heard here. Any opinion or commentary is the view of the speaker only not shares for beginners. This podcast doesn't replace professional advice regarding your personal financial needs circumstances or current situation.

Phil (29m 11s):
And thank you for listening to my podcast.

Shares for Beginners is for information and educational purposes only. It isn’t financial advice, and you shouldn’t buy or sell any investments based on what you’ve heard here. Any opinion or commentary is the view of the speaker only not Shares for Beginners. This podcast doesn’t replace professional advice regarding your personal financial needs, circumstances or current situation