PETER CHILTON | Under the Radar Report

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Energizing Investments: The Rise of Uranium Stocks. Peter Chilton  Under The Radar Report
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In this episode, I sit down with Peter Chilton, a mining engineer turned financial expert, to discuss the rise of uranium, and nuclear's role in a net zero future.

Peter specialises in small caps and especially mining. He studied as a mining engineer before switching to finance over 30 years ago. He's also an active investor and avid reader and works at the Under the Radar Report.

This episode is based on a recent research report which you can download here. Here's some more detailed information.

Nuclear has long been a contentious topic, often overshadowed by its more popular renewable siblings, solar and wind. However, as the world grapples with the urgency of climate change and the quest for net-zero emissions, nuclear energy is stepping out of the shadows and into the spotlight.

Peter dissects the reasons behind uranium's sudden price surge from the latest climate summit to innovative small modular reactors.

But what does this mean for investors? We all know how hard it can be to catch a macro wave. Just look at lithium. We talk about Paladin Energy and Boss Energy, and the factors that set them apart in the market. He also delves into the risks and rewards of investing in this sector, providing a balanced view for those considering adding a glow to their portfolio.

Whether you're an experienced investor or just curious about the role of uranium in our energy future, this episode is packed with valuable information. As Peter eloquently puts it, 'Nuclear is a necessity if the world's going to go to net zero over time.' But is the market ready to embrace this necessity?


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Energizing Investments: The Rise of Uranium Stocks

Chloe: Shares for beginners Phil Muscatello and Finpods are authorised reps of Moneysherpa. The information in this podcast is general in nature and doesn't take into account your personal situation.

Peter: There's been a lot of people, countries, governments in denial about uranium that it's not for them. But I think with that, uh, latest cop, there's a realisation that actually uranium is going to be much greater part of world future power requirements and more countries committed to it, either new power plants or showing a lot more interest than they were. And also, I think a realization that, uh, solar, wind, despite the great prospects for both, it's not permanent power, it's more intermittent and got its own share of problems in terms of establishing it, environmental and so forth. So I think people realise that whatever you think about nuclear, nuclear is a necessity if the world's going to go sort of net zero over time.

Peter Chilton specializes in small caps and especially mining

Phil: G'day and welcome back to shares for beginners. I'm Phil Muscatello. Uranium and nuclear stocks are off to an explosive start this year, so to speak. But will the momentum continue? Joining me to split the atom in this episode is Peter Chilton from under, um, the radar report. G'day, Peter.

Peter: Hi. Hi, Phil.

Phil: Thanks very much for coming over. Peter Chilton specializes in small caps and especially mining. He studied as a geologist before switching to finance over 30 years ago. He's also an active investor and avid reader.

Peter has worked in the Pilbara and Cobar

But Peter, we were just talking before I turned the microphone on about your background working in the Pilbara and, uh, Cobar.

Peter: I studied mine engineering, not geology.

Phil: Oh, okay, well, that's on your bio, on the website.

Peter: Shouldn't be that. Okay, that's okay.

Phil: But yeah, what was it like? I mean, you came from England. Did you go straight into the mining industry?

Peter: No, I worked in the mining industry in the UK for a company called British Gypsum.

Phil: Mhm.

Peter: And as a student I'd actually worked out at my dyser in Queensland. So I'd been here before. But then after a number of years working in the UK, I came out to work in the mining industry in the iron ore industry in the Pilbara. Tom Price Hamersley the iron.

Phil: Okay, what was that like? It was very good.

Peter: I enjoyed it. I mean, it was a very enjoyable large scale, open pit mining. It's a lot bigger today than it was then and also a very interesting scenic part of the world to live in.

Phil: M and it's interesting as well, isn't it, that the FTSE, the UK stock market, that is quite heavy with miners as well, isn't it? It is.

Peter: London was a big mining centre in.

Phil: London stock exchange and the London Metals Exchange as well. London Metals Exchange, they enjoyed the extractive industries.

Peter: That's right. I mean, there's mining companies based in the UK, all over the world, operating in South America, Africa, particularly Australia. So it's always been a big mining center.

Phil: Yeah. And what about cobar, was that different? What's cobar? What do they mine in Cobar?

Peter: Cobar is very varied. It's had a long mining history. I suppose the main things mined there would be copper and gold, and the mining I worked at focused on lead and silver. Lead, zinc and silver. So it's a very varied mineral field, lots of different commodities, and they're still exploring and finding things there even today.

Phil: So do you think Australia is really lucky in the kind of minerals that we have under the ground?

Peter: Well, it's a very large country, so you'd expect, I suppose, to be plenty of minerals there and it's very spread out. But I guess it is lucky, particularly Western Australia, where particularly well endowed and all commodities. And it seems that not only the major commodities like copper and gold and so forth, but big focus on iron ore, now a big focus on lithium.

Why do you think nuclear power has such a sunny, bright future

Phil: So we're here today to talk about nuclear power. Why do you think nuclear has got such a sunny, bright future?

Peter: Well, nuclear isn't new. I mean, we've had nuclear power stations for years, we. 40 years.

Phil: Not in Australia.

Peter: Not in Australia. I mean, I can think of quite recently as well, a few years ago with one of my boys Dungeness uh, where there's Dungeness s nuclear power station. Just see this big power station, take it for granted. Nothing strange about it. So it's been around for a long time and it's really just the focus on going low carbon or zero carbon, which has brought the focus back to other forms and a realization that while wind and solar is very helpful, it's intermittent and still new. Whereas nuclear has been around for a long, long time, and it can provide the very valuable baseload power which people need to keep the lights on when, no matter what the weather's doing.

Phil: Although we're pretty squeamish here in Australia about it, aren't we, compared to the rest of the world?

Peter: Well, they even ban uranium for a while. I don't know why, really. I mean, the rest of the world is far more comfortable with nuclear, and Australia is just going to have to get more comfortable with nuclear.

Phil: Yeah. Do you think that's inevitable?

Peter: Well, nothing's inevitable. But I think what's happening is there's development of these small modular reactors which make having a relatively modest sized nuclear power plant more palatable and safer than what it had been in the past and more cost effective. So we may see that, but maybe not in the near future. It might be 40 or 50 years away, but I think it's possible we will get it.

The price of uranium has doubled since Fukushima in Japan

Phil: What's been happening to the price of uranium? That's been going pretty well, hasn't it?

Peter: Well, uranium has been in the doldrums for many years, especially since Fukushima in Japan, the Tsunami there, and so it's been in the doldrums and people have been saying, well, nuclear is going to take off. But for a number of years it didn't. It didn't really do anything, despite all the prospects looking very good. So it's really only in the last twelve months or so that the price has really taken off. It's pretty much more than doubled, really, from what it was before. So that's probably been of a shock to the system for some people, but you could say it was inevitable they would do eventually.

Phil: So is that about supply or demand?

Peter: It's a bit of both. I mean, clearly you can see demand really picking up or looking further out, bearing mind the number of power plants that are being built, typically by the Chinese, but also by the intent of other countries around the world. And the number of new mines are stagnated, that there's been no real decent price to attract new players and it's quite difficult in many parts of the world to establish a uranium mine. So nothing's really happened on the production front for a number of years and it's only just beginning to break out now with companies like Paladin starting production very soon.

Phil: Whereabouts does uranium come from currently? Which countries?

Peter: It's spread around the world quite a bit. But I suppose the key countries would be places like Kazakhstan, which is probably the largest producer. Also countries like Namibia in southwest Africa. Australia is quite a large producer, particularly BHP's Olympic damned mine, and also a place like Russia, quite a big producer, so it's scattered. I think it's Niger or niger in Africa. They're quite a big producer, so it's spread around, but only in a relatively small number of countries.

After Dubai climate summit, more countries are showing interest in nuclear power

Phil: So listeners might be aware that we have the latest CoP 28 climate summit in Dubai. What's the significance of nuclear after that meeting?

Peter: There's been a lot of people, countries, governments in denial about uranium, that it's not for them. But I think with that latest cop, there's a realization that actually uranium is going to be much greater part of the world's future power requirements and more countries committed to it, either new power plants or showing a lot more interest than they were. And also, I think, a realization that solar and wind, despite the great prospects for both, it's not permanent power, it's more intermittent and got its own share of problems in terms of establishing it, environmental and so forth. So I think people realize that whatever you think about nuclear, nuclear is a necessity if the world's going to go sort of net zero over time.

Phil: M it's funny because I've had these conversations with friends and I sort of say, well, why not nuclear power? But wasn't there a CSI report a couple of years ago that came out that said that wind and solar were so much cheaper here in Australia than nuclear that there's no need for it here in Australia? But they didn't actually factor in the transmission costs?

Peter: Yeah, well, transmission is a big issue, as we've been reading about recently. But I think when you're looking at the cost of one or the other, uh, or people are looking at all the costs of what's been established or what would be required to establish nuclear capacity today without taking into account the changes in technology which are going through, especially the small modular reactors, which are pretty new and unproven to some point. But I think you've got to accept that once you pursue something with scale, the costs are going to come down. I mean, after all, up until recently, people were saying that solar and wind were more expensive than coal, but that's no longer the case. So if you pursue something with commitment, then costs do you have a habit of changing and the transmission is an important thing. I mean, the wind and solar could well be in some isolated location. It's very difficult to put in the transmission, uh, with all the environmental issues with that. Whereas nuclear can be much closer to general populations if they'll, uh, allow to be built out.

Phil: But in here, in the middle of Sydney or not on the outskirts of Sydney, we've got a nuclear reactor, haven't we?

Peter: Well, we have, yeah.

Phil: People aren't aware of it.

Peter: Most people don't even know about it.

Phil: Yeah, that's right. Also, I think one of the great promoters of nuclear has been recently last year's Miss America, 2023, in fact, is, uh, a nuclear engineer and has spent a lot of her time promoting the use of nuclear power and visiting nuclear power stations. She's just stepped down. There's a new Miss America at the moment, Grace Stanke. If you want to follow her on Twitter, she's a great advocate for nuclear power.

Australia seems to have a number of prospective uranium projects under development

Right, so where is it mined in Australia? I mean, uh, the name Roxby Downs comes to mind. Is that one of the.

Peter: Well, that's in South Australia. Yeah, the former western mining project acquired by BHP. I think that's as a producer. It's quite globally quite a significant producer. But in terms of what it produces per year, although BHP doesn't often talk about it, there has been, or there was a substantial uranium business up in the Northern Territory with a mine called Narbleck which closed down quite a few years ago.

Phil: What was that mine?

Peter: Narbleck. And then also era, which is also closed down. But that was a very significant operation. The other operations, or future operations is boss Energy, the, uh, honeymoon mine, which is in South Australia. And there's quite a lot of projects which have the prospect of coming to fruition over the next few years. West Australia, Northern Territory, Queensland, South Australia, all those states seems to have various projects. Fairly early stage in some respects, but definitely with the sort of resources which are capable of supporting an operation subject know just the market being continued to be good for uranium.

Phil: Is it a difficult mineral to mine and process or element, I should say?

Peter: Yeah, not specifically, but clearly it needs another layer of supervision because obviously the uranium that you're producing is quite potentially quite dangerous. So there's always got to be a lot more environmental things behind it and obviously environmental objections and more hurdles before you can actually get a uranium project. But technically, I wouldn't say it's easy, but it's certainly mean. There's a lot of examples around the world which you can feed off.

Phil: So we're basing this interview on a recent research report that you published with under the radar where you looked at some of the companies.

Tell us about a couple of the companies that produce uranium here in Australia

Tell us about a couple of the companies that produce uranium here in Australia as a way of getting exposure to this.

Peter: Well, the first one is Paladin, which actually their operations in Namibia, but it is an australian company and they have operated the mine in Namibia before. It's already. They're just reopening an existing mine. Obviously they're improving on it. So that's proven. And they'll be opening quite, fairly soon. Uh, quite a significant sort of 8 million pounds per year is sort of their target sort of rate. Take them probably a while to do that. So that's definitely something which is of interest. Even though it's offshore and then onshore, there's boss energy, which is basically reopening a mine that was operated, the honeymoon mine, operating in South Australia. And that's due to open very of within months. And that's also tried and proven, but there again, they've improved on the technology and the plant layout to improve efficiency. So they're the two that you can invest in, which have that near term production, which, of course, is. That means you're benefiting from the suburban prices, which we're seeing today, whereas a lot of the other companies, you're going to have to wait several years before they're getting into production. So there's not the immediate benefit to cash flow for the higher prices.

Phil: It's always worthwhile looking at these, because we're looking at a new idea here, a new investment idea. And people always want to catch a macro wave. They sort of suddenly say, I mean, the example, of course, is lithium over the last few years, and people think, okay, lithium. But timing the catching of that macrowave is always very difficult. Yeah.

We've just seen this large increase in spot price to just over $100

What do you think of the forces playing out on this wave are, uh, at the moment?

Peter: Well, we've just seen this large increase in spot price to just over $100. It's come back at a few dollars, but it's still a very strong price, and there's a lot of people out there. So suggesting it can go a lot higher. 100 and 5200, maybe that's the spot price. It may not necessarily be the same price as the contract price. That is the price that most producers like to get.

Phil: What's the difference between those two?

Peter: Well, I mean, the spot price is just the marginal amount of material, uh, available, whereas the contract is the negotiation between the miner and the utility, and the utility is all about relationships and so forth. So sometimes if you have a strong relationship with a customer, there's an agreement on a more stable price, rather than one that's going to be volatile, which may mean there's like a floor and a ceiling. And be fair to say, those floor and fall and ceilings have risen, gone up, but may still not be at the high levels of spot prices that we're seeing at the moment or will be seeing in the future. So certainly relationships are very important in that industry.

Phil: I derailed your answer there. We were talking about the macro wave and what to watch out for when trying to catch this macro wave of uranium or lithium or whatever a commodity is being talked about.

Peter: Yeah, well, I think. I mean, as far as the investors are concerned, I think there's more to go, but obviously the easy money has been made I suppose in the stocks.

Phil: That'S always that way, isn't it? When you finally hear about it, it's too late.

Peter: But I guess it's going to be volatile. So there's going to be corrections and price pullbacks, and there may be opportunities there, and there always be opportunities that with the price going high, there's lots of explorers. Obviously, the level of speculation increases with an explorer, but there's going to be a few explorers that really find a really good project. And so if you can find one of those explorers which finds a really good project, then that may be a good opportunity for investors as well. Some projects will be average, but there might be one exceptional one that really has very good prospects. So that's the one that, where there's an opportunity, if you can find it.

Phil: If you can find it. We love that. Always a caveat, isn't there?

Peter: Yes.

Boston and Paladin are both highly financed uranium miners

Phil: These companies, well, pallet and boss energy, what is it about the financials that make them stand out to you as opposed to other uranium miners?

Peter: Well, uh, I guess in both their cases, they're financed. They've got the money through equity raisings or debt. And some of that debt comes from, well, credentialed financial providers because they've got, say, offtech agreements or track records with customers. So they've got credibility. So the key thing, they've got finance. Both of them have advanced their projects in terms of reopening them and modernizing and installing new equipment to the point they're both very close to production. So that's the difference. Whereas some others might have nothing on the ground to look at. There's a big resource, but that has to be monetized somehow. The money has to always be raised, uh, to finance the project. Both Boston and Paladin, the hard work's been done. Ah, sort commissioning can be quite difficult, but hopefully, you'd assume since they've had a track record, that will be just a formality.

Phil: We'll get back to the show right after this brief message.

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Your report says that you have to beware of junior uranium miners

So the other kind of companies you're talking about, are they like the junior uranium miners?

Peter: Well, some are more advanced. I mean, one we've covered is Bannerman M. That's also in Namibia. And they've given us target dates for when they want to get into production. And they're far down the track in terms of feasibility studies and things like that. But I mean, they've still got to, although there would have been talk to banks and financiers and so forth, they've still got to uh, finalize financing. They've still got to finance final designs and so forth for a project. So that's probably three years, maybe four years away before they're in production, assuming things go smoothly. So a very good project. The share price has got good resources, long life expansion potential, lots of positive aspects, but they're still a number of years away from production. So that's one to watch, but not benefiting from the cash flow for a while.

Phil: So your report says that you have to beware of junior uranium miners. Why is that?

Peter: Well, I mean, you can get carried away by the prospects of a company, but then forget that. Uh, you still need to do all the feasibility studies. You still need to make a final investment decision. You still need to get financing. You have to build it, find people who will build it, build it to budget. It doesn't go over budget. Still a lot of hurdles to do. And there's going to be a lot of companies that all they have really is just, uh, a concept. And they have to get from concept to project. And people might as an investor might buy into the concept, but the reality is they're still a long way from finalizing that project.

Phil: So these companies that have a concept, is this concept based on the reality of an, is it pronounced?

Peter: They've done extensive exploration. They've been drilling and they've got drill intersections and they've got grades and they've probably converted that, uh, into some sort of resource, which looks promising maybe, but a lot depends on the grade. And the other thing people forget about with these projects is the metallurgy. You can have a grade. But what process to use to extract the uranium? What recovery do you get? Is it something that, where the metallurgy is straightforward, off the shelf, or has it got complications? And often you find with projects, not just uranium metallurgy, it fails the hurdle because it suddenly becomes a recovery is low or there's some problem requires more acid consumption or something about it that makes the recovery more difficult, more problematic and perhaps not economic.

Phil: At what stage do companies find out about that? Uh, well, metallurgical part of it.

Peter: Companies should at a fairly early stage do some metallurgical work because you can't design a plant until you've done that. A lot of companies do do extensive logical work, but sometimes they don't do enough and that would be a big criticism. Some people, some companies may assume the process is okay, but I think one of the we don't cover it, but peninsula in the States, they've got a project and they're basically reopening. But they had problems with their original project because they got the meteorological sign wrong. So that derailed that project. So that's something to be very wary of.

Are there any particular risks to investing in the uranium sector as opposed to other minerals

Phil: So are there any particular risks to investing in the uranium sector as opposed to, I mean, as currently it sounds like it's the same sort of risks you'd have in any kind of commodity or any kind of mineral that you're taking out of the ground.

Peter: I guess there's always risks with anything that suddenly somebody might find an alternative means of energy or something. There's always some other alternative which means that people don't need to use uranium. That applies to, I suppose, anything, lithium, anything. And ah, there's always a risk there could be some major disaster somewhere which puts people off using it for some reason or accelerates an alternative, another fukushima or some major disaster somewhere. So that's a sort of risk, sort of unexpected risk that might come through.

Phil: Yeah, that would be a big risk. It doesn't apply really to something like iron ore, for example, or lithium.

Peter: Yeah, some sort of public backlash, something.

Phil: Like that, which it's had many times over the years, hasn't it? Uranium and nuclear power.

Peter: The track record of uranium has been very good really in the last few years with no major action. The track record has been pretty good recently and uh, the technology is improving all the time. So hopefully in the future the track record should continue to be very good for new projects, but, uh, things can always go wrong.

Sometimes the mining industry gets a bad name because of environmental concerns

Phil: What do you love about mining the industry?

Peter: Well, I guess there's something very creative about mining. I mean I've seen projects, visited projects when there was a resource there, but absolutely nothing there. Just uh, a lot of drill holes and things. And then I might have visited the project a few years later and they're constructing something then a few years after know there's a full blown project. So I suppose I'm old enough to have seen that. I mean you look at a project like Ernest Henry, which is the major copper project, which now, roger, controlled by evolution now, but it's had several owners. And I remember the first drill hole which was very. At the time I think it was savage resources made the drill hole and then there's a bit of a dispute about who owned it because of western mining. So there's all that. So you'd visit the site with all this controversy and then eventually that was sorted out, became a project. It was only going to be an open pit for the mine. I uh, for about eight years, 810 years, and now it's a big underground mine and it's still going. So if you look at that's creating wealth and you keep pursuing it, and that's proved to be a massive resource. So I suppose that's one of the things why it's quite enjoyable.

Phil: Sometimes the industry gets a bad name because of the environmental concerns. Do you think that's something that's been improving or it's uh. Look, it not necessarily a deserved reputation.

Peter: It'S been improving all the time. Before you establish a new mind these days, enormous hurdles, environmental hurdles. And I think if you look at a company's annual report these days, it's full of environmental issues and human resources and things. So I think all the companies realize, especially with the pension funds being shareholders, they just got to be more responsible and have a major accident or spill of something. Polluting a river is just unacceptable. So the track record is, I think, much improved. You still get the OD accidents, but a uh, lot of the problems now back in the olden days when there were no controls, and I suppose a lot of that was the fault of the legislation as well, rather than just blaming the company. At the end of the day, a lot depends on having the right legislation to make sure mining companies do, do the right thing.

Phil: And they do a lot of restoration.

Peter: These days as well. Restoration, yeah.

Phil: Once a mine's finished and reached the end of its usable life, yeah.

Peter: Uh, it's obviously in the middle of nowhere and you've just made a big hole you can't fill the hole in. But then in some cases they've been interned into recreational areas depending where it is. So yeah, I mean there's a big emphasis on restoration so getting back to.

Do you think coal still has a future amid transition to renewable energy

Phil: Nuclear power and all these forces that are swirling around because of transition to renewable energy do you think coal has a future for a while or what kind of horizon are we looking at for coal?

Peter: I guess coal still has a future because there's a lot of power stations in certain countries like India and South Korea and Japan which are reliant on coal so they will continue for a while but ultimately coal mines have a mine life and some of them are um, fairly limited. So ultimately you will see a wind down of the coal industry as the mines run out of coal and as governments refuse to extend leases or grant new leases. Alternative companies themselves say that we'll continue to a certain date but after that we don't want to continue beyond that date and Bhp sort of been doing that sort of thing so there will be a future for coal for quite a number of years and some people would say unfortunately it's just that some countries, even Australia is relying on coal mining coal fuel power stations for the next ten years or so but obviously with time they'll generally dwindle I suppose but uh, some depends on what the foreign policy of these other countries are whether it be China or India and what they do they need to find an alternative source of power and uh for some countries it's maybe not that easy to find an alternative source and.

Phil: Of course gas has been in the news of course because of the situation with Russia and also some see it as more of a transitional fuel to renewables. Is that the case?

Peter: Well it is but I think a problem with gas as a transitional fuel is that gas has become more expensive well coal's become more expensive as well so m where you had cheap gas it was very attractive but it's no longer cheap so it's just a limitation to what gas can do I think particularly and in some cases gas is in short supply it's fairly short on the east coast of Australia because we export so much. So uh, there's still a lot of attraction if you can get solar to work and get the transmission right to do solar and wind.

You're an analyst specializing in small companies and mining especially or other sectors

Phil: So tell us about your role under the radar. You're an analyst there? Uh uh yeah and specializing in small companies and mining especially or other sectors as well.

Peter: I mean I'm a mining engineer originally. I have looked at small caps and industrial companies for many years. I used to work for a fund manager called Constellation Capital Management and I used to cover both there. I also used to work at a place called Aegis Equities Research where I did all industrials, no resources at all, because I wanted a break from resources. So under the radar I cover both. So I got a blend of both mining and non mining. And while we look primarily small caps, we also do a blue chip report as well. So I sometimes look at the large caps. So I could be looking at Woodside or BHP, but, um, I might also be looking at an industrial like CSR or borel or something. So I guess I've become very adept, I suppose, at covering lots of sectors and so forth. And after all, they're all companies. Companies. It's the same challenges. Cash flow, capital, strong management, it's all the same things you look at, whether it be resource company or an industrial company or small caps or large caps.

Are there passionate and robust discussions at your roundtables with other analysts

Phil: Are, uh, there a lot of passionate and robust discussions at your roundtables with the other analysts?

Peter: All the time, yeah, all the time. Well, that's one of the good things.

Phil: Because I think individual investors need to understand that it's great to have your ideas tested and that when you're learning about the share market and learning about investing in individual companies, it's great to have sounding boards to challenge your ideas.

Peter: Yeah, I mean, lots of times we might have looked at a company which looked reasonable, then someone would do a bit more work and we decide not to cover it. I mean, quite a few times I've looked at companies and said to Richard, look, I don't like this company. There's something about it. Uh, there might be a good reason or I've discovered something about this company which the share is not performing because of this. There's something innate in this company and we should stop covering it or not cover it at all or something like that. So there's a lot of debate and it's a healthy debate. I mean, some people talk about working from home. That's the trend. Well, of course we working in office and we talk, so we're always talking in person. So that's good.

Do you have any advice for a first time investor approaching the share market

Phil: Do you have any advice for a first time investor, someone who's approaching the share market for the first time?

Peter: It's very hard. It can be quite hard. But I suppose seek good advice. Just be careful, don't speculate. Do your homework first or use research that where the homework has been done for you, don't invest more than what you could afford to lose. Just be careful with your money.

Phil: I think there's one of the things that comes across from talking to so many people is to cut your losses as well. Because so many people, they hear about a stock, someone's told them they buy the stock, it drops 50%, and then they don't know what to do about it. Because these days you can put your money in funds or etfs or whatever where someone else is looking after the money. But if you get the bug, you really do have to do a lot more homework and build up a bit more conviction, don't you?

Peter: You do. I mean, you need to be in a stock for a reason. And if that reason has changed your thesis or your conviction has changed on that stock, then you have to sell it. And it's not good to buy stocks on the way down thinking you're getting cheaper because that stock's going down. Maybe for a reason. There might be a strong reason, and it may not always be evident what the reason is.

Phil: There can be so many reasons.

Peter: So many reasons. One of the hard things about stocks is knowing when to sell and cutting losses if you're making a loss or taking profit or whatever. So you're taking advantage of the strong prices when they're there and not having to sell when the stock's in some sort of downtrend or plunging down.

Phil: Okay, well, the nuclear report, we'll make that available as a download in the blog post. And if you want to find out more about the reports that Peter have produced on these particular companies, it's under the radar report. I think there might be a free trial or something, but we'll check and make sure that there's a link in the blog post where people can find out more about this. Peter Chilton, thank you very much for joining me today.

Peter: Thanks, Phil. Thank you. Thanks for inviting me.

Chloe: Thanks for listening to shares for beginners. You can find if you enjoy listening, please take a moment to rate or review in your podcast player or tell a friend who might want to learn more about investing for their future.

TONY KYNASTON is a multi-millionaire professional investor thanks to the QAV checklist he developed . Tony's knowledge and calm analysis takes the guesswork out of share market investing.

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